Transcript 0:00 Welcome to Calling Operator, [car driving] the podcast where we speak to operators in some of Australia's biggest startups, [upbeat music] find out how they got there and what their impact is. [upbeat music] Operator. 0:13 Connecting to Dr Izzy Bigio, Platform Manager at Blackbird. [static crackles] Izzy, welcome to the pod. Thanks so much for having me, Paula. I'm so excited to be here. [laughs] So excited to have you here. 0:28 So we're gonna start off pretty simple. I just wanted to ask, give us a bit of background about where you grew up and what your sort of early life looked like. Yeah, sure thing. 0:36 So I am from New Zealand, originally born and grew up in Auckland, which is in the North Island of New Zealand, but I have a bit of a kind of mixed family background. 0:45 So on my mum's side, she's Malaysian Chinese, grew up in Malaysia, and my dad's sort of Canadian Middle Eastern, grew up in Canada. 0:53 But my brothers and I are kind of the first g- generation to grow up in New Zealand, so I had a pretty great upbringing and interesting, I guess, like, mixed culture background. No, that's a really interesting- Yeah... 1:04 cultural background. How did they end up in New Zealand? 1:07 My mum came over first, so my uncle came over to New Zealand to study at university, and when they came over, my family loved it so much they decided to come with him and all uproot and move here. 1:19 And my- Bet he loved that. Yeah. [laughs] They did love that. He was... 1:22 [laughs] And then, I mean, after they came, the whole rest of our extended family came as well, so there's, like, probably about 30 or so of us here now, and I don't have any close family back in Malaysia. 1:32 Everyone's in New Zealand on Mum's side. But Mum and Dad actually met in Hong Kong while Dad was on his world tour after finishing uni. 1:40 So grew up in Can- Montreal in Canada, went to uni there, and then sort of left after he finished uni to do some traveling. You know, classic- Mm... gap year, as you will. 1:48 Met my mum and then fell in love and then decided to move to New Zealand with her, and he's still here, like, how many years later. So that's how they ended up here. What a beautiful love story. [laughs] Yeah. 1:58 [laughs] And then you've still got extended family in Canada? Yes. So I have... My, my dad's... Well, actually, all my dad's side of the family are living in Canada at the moment, so his brothers and my cousins. 2:08 How nice. Um, and then so it's kind of skipping forward to, like, you arrived into the world and you, I'm assuming, go to school in New Zealand, and then what happened at university stage? What happened there? Yeah. 2:19 [laughs] What did happen there? [laughs] Great question. [laughs] So I went straight into medical school from high school, so I, like, my background and training is as a medical doctor. Did you take a break? 2:31 I went straight into medical school. Oh, wow. So you were in medical school when you were, like, 18? Yeah, I was, I was straight in there. Didn't wanna waste time [laughs] to get straight into med school and kind of... 2:41 It was really tunnel vision on that doctor pathway. So I had wanted to do- Mm... 2:45 that right from probably early teenage years, kind of curiosity driven, idea of impact and wanting to make a positive impact through my work. Always really liked the sciences. 2:56 Medicine kind of presented as the logical choice career step, and so I was very focused on pursuing that wealth. 3:03 Went, went to med school straight from high school, trained for six years, and then started work doctor in the Auckland region. [laughs] That is a... Yeah, that is quite... 3:12 So was there something that happened when you were a teenager that drove that? Or was it just this kind of, like, I wanna make an impact, I like science, I'm obviously quite intelligent, so, like- [laughs]... 3:23 those three things lead to being able to get into [laughs] medical school? [laughs] It's an interesting one. I think that, like, t- truthfully speaking, it's probably a combination of, like, lots of different factors. 3:33 So impact, like, that played a part. Love of science has played a... I think I... Like, I really wanted to use 3:45 the education that I'd had to do something that seemed to be of value with my career and, like, rightly or wrongly- Mm... 3:51 I think when you go through school, these traditional career pathways are very much celebrated and valued, even if that's not- Mm... explicitly said. Uh, there's a lot of 4:01 enforcement when it [laughs] comes to choosing those types of career pathways, and so that, I think, definitely played a factor for me as well, like, wanting to make my family proud and- Mm. 4:10 So it's a true lots of different things. What was your family's perspective on med school? Were they just over the moon or what was- They were definitely o- over the moon. I think I'm... 4:19 Well, I am the first doctor in my family, so peop- m- m- my family's in the law and the arts, but never med school. 4:26 They never pressured me any way to go down that path, but were obviously quite thrilled when they found out that that's what they thought I wanted to do in- independently of what they wanted for me. Mm, yeah. 4:37 It doesn't help having a doctor in the family, right? Like- That's true... maybe you need a sort of rash. [laughs] Yeah, definitely. You do, you do get a lot of attention, but it's... 4:46 [laughs] All right, so six years at med school, you start as a doctor. What year are we talking now? Let's put some context around there. Yeah, sure. 4:55 So started working as a doctor in November 2020, so it was actually just a couple of months- Oof... before the pandemic fully hit New Zealand. 5:03 So kind of started my career with a period of, like, COVID was around, but hadn't really impacted New Zealand or the hospitals yet. 5:11 And so it wasn't probably until '21 where that really changed, so it was a really interesting- Yeah... time. Like starting your medical career, regardless of, you know, external- Mm... 5:21 circumstances of pandemic is stressful. 5:23 [laughs] And so it's been, like, an interesting time to work in healthcare and, and kind of be starting out on that journey, and I think probably did accelerate my timeline to exit. 5:33 [laughs] I think I was always- [laughs]... meant to exit, but I think, like, starting in that period of time definitely sped up the process. [laughs] Yeah. When you first... 5:41 Let's put COVID to the side for a second 'cause we'll jump into that, but when you first started in that period of, like- Mm-hmm... normalcy, what was your impression of-... 5:51 being a doctor, like, did that live up to the kind of internal monologue that you had developed over that time? I'd say no, with the asterisk that it's a really big psychological step up going from student to- Mm... 6:05 doctor in the sense that you suddenly have to take a lot more accountability for your decisions, and you don't have as much of a backstop to rely on. As a student, you always have someone more senior. 6:14 You're never making independent decisions. You're always kind of- Yeah... deferring to someone more senior than you to look over your work and sign things off. 6:21 It's never your signature that's sending someone home or, you know, signing off on medication. But when you start working as a junior doctor, that starts to change, and- Mm-hmm... 6:30 while you still have a lot of oversight from your senior staff and you work within a team, you are making more independent decisions. And so that took a lot of... That was, like, quite a scary... 6:39 'Cause you're very acutely aware of how your own kind of shortcomings, like if you've had a bad day, you're not rested, sick, like, that's your decision that's gonna impact this patient. 6:49 So I don't think anything can really... Well, kind of making that transition is one of those things you just have to kind of do it. 6:56 With, for that, I kind of intellectually knew know how it would feel until I actually did it. 7:00 So I'd say that at least the first six months, probably a lot of adjusting to that change in mindset rather than focusing on, like, how I fit within the career, and there was some... such a rapid p- pace of learning. 7:13 It kind of distracted me from... 7:15 And it wasn't until probably I got a bit more comfortable with that side of things that it prompted some of that, like, broader thinking about the compatibility of me with the career in general. 7:23 Yeah, that's really interesting 'cause I feel like especially when I worked in advertising, I used to say often, "Well, we're not saving lives here" [laughs] but like literally were. [laughs] You know? 7:34 Definitely puts context around those, like, big decisions, for sure. So then COVID happens, and I know that at first New Zealand didn't... It, it like, it didn't get sort of majorly out of control. Mm. I don't think... 7:45 Did it ever get majorly out of control? But it still impacted the hospital system. 7:48 It's funny because I would say the larger impact happened probably a year or, a year or so into the pandemic because we closed off our borders- Mm... and everyone was so scared. 7:59 No one was coming into hospital, and there was actually, in terms of, like, volume of cases, it was really low. Mm. 8:05 And it wasn't until the following year where borders opened up and restrictions were loosened, really large volume of cases in New Zealand that just by pure numbers, a lot more people ended up in hospital. So- Mm. 8:17 Yeah... initial phase, it wasn't necessarily... That's not necessarily when the most strain happened on hospitals. It was a little bit further in. Yeah. And you were working in emergency, weren't you, as a junior doctor? 8:29 As a junior, I was rotating around different departments. Did some time- Okay... in general... I think that year I was doing general med, neurology, and then general surgery and orthopedics. So it's not like... 8:41 I wasn't working in ED as an ED doctor. Mm-hmm. We would go down and, like, admittance from ED to our service, but we weren't, like- Got you... all the ED patients. Got you, got you. 8:49 So before we get onto the career shift, which is obviously coming [laughs] Yeah. But when you were kind of still pre-questioning your whole medical career... 9:00 I mean, just to put this into context for everyone listening, you've done six years of study. Mm-hmm. 9:05 You've been thinking about doing this since you were a teenager, and then you've done, you know, a couple of years in a hospital, and particularly at a time where being in a hospital was a relatively high-stress [laughs] decision regardless of a medical degree. 9:19 [laughs] Before you decided thinking about external to, to being a doctor, had you already made that decision mentally as to, like, which path of medicine you wanted to go down? Yeah, I had actually. 9:29 So I always thought that I would go down the physician pathway. So I was, I was never surgically inclined. That was, like, never in the playing cards for me, [laughs] and I knew that- [laughs]... that was fine. 9:39 But I always really liked the idea of becoming a physician in some kind of, like, specialist field. The one I was most drawn to was, like, obstetric medicine, which is different from obstetrician. 9:49 So obstetricians kind of manage pregnancies and deliver babies. Obstetric physicians are, like, medical doctors who look after a woman with complex medical conditions during their pregnancy. 9:59 So it's more focused on the woman and optimizing her medical conditions, making a safe plan for delivery- Mm-hmm... than the actual pregnancy it- itself, if that makes sense. So the- Yeah... 10:10 physicians work with obstetricians, but they have slightly different focus. And that was, like, probably the one area of medicine for me, and I thought I could see myself doing, but the pathway to get... 10:18 It's so hyper-specialized, the pathway to actually get to doing that kind of work is so long. Mm. Just the med- Another six years of med school. 10:25 [laughs] Or, like, probably longer than that [laughs] from a training perspective. Oh, Jesus. So I was just, like, it... 10:30 Weighing up, is it worth it to sacrifice the time and have to go through, like, the rigor of that training for something that- Mm... may or may not be the right, like, fit for me. 10:41 So i- if I was gonna go down that path, that was... gonna go down, and up, up until I kind of think, thought about resigning, that was where I thought I was headed. Right. So then take us through, like, when do you... 10:52 'Cause I still find it so interesting that y- again, like, I don't know why I'm harping on about this because- [laughs]... I don't think I've ever met anyone that's kind of made such a big decision. 11:02 But after six years of medical school, then working as a doctor, also for context for everyone listening, Izzy's husband is also a doctor. So you're living in this very specific world. 11:11 What made you first dip your toes into, "Hey, I'm gonna quit being a doctor and go work in startup" [laughs]? [laughs] Yeah. 11:19 That's, uh, not really the career I envisaged for myself, but- I think, um, I think what came first was that I need to quit medicine, not the what am I gonna... I'm not gonna... 11:31 Not what am I gonna quit it for, it was just that this is not right, I need to get out. So I think that moment happened probably about a year into full-time work. 11:41 I had kind of through a couple of different rotations, and was... Ha- had spent six months doing surgery, which I knew wasn't for me, and so I kept telling myself, "Oh, it's fine. 11:50 I've got a whole year of medicine coming up. Once I loop back into medicine, which is what I think I wanna be doing, then I'll enjoy myself and then, you know, everything will be fine once I hit that point." 12:01 And- Everything will fall into place. Yeah, exactly. Into place. I'll be doing what I wanna be doing. It's fine. I just need to get through this couple months. Mm-hmm. And then I looped back into medicine. 12:09 I was still, like, very deeply unhappy. [laughs] And I think- Mm... like, that was the prompt for me to realize, okay, I'm actually... I've done a year. It's enough to kind of get a sense of what it's like. 12:19 I've, I've kind of learned how to manage... you know, better manage the responsibility that comes with this kind of role. A bit more muscle memory for me now. 12:27 I've looped back into what I think I wanna be doing, and I'm still very deeply unhappy, and I, I don't think this is- Mm. And it might not be that it's not the right time or there's not another... 12:35 excuse, it's just that this job is not right for me. Mm. So that's what came- Yeah... 12:40 first, and then came, like, a whole identity crisis [laughs] 'cause I was like- Oh, man, I mean, I've done a similar thing before, but I didn't- Yeah... spend six years studying. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. 12:49 [laughs] I've gotten into a job that I was like, "This is gonna be the most beautiful, wonderful job in the world" and I've, I've gotten, like, three months in. And you know, like, it's a guttural reaction. 12:57 You're like- Totally... "This is not what I wanna do." And it... I can't imagine it was terrifying in a way. It, it... 13:04 I think 'cause I, I'd spent so long hyper-fixated on the pathway with a very clear 10-year plan of what I wanted to do, to suddenly be confronted with the reality that this is actually not what my future's gonna look like was very confronting. 13:18 Mm. And then came the question, a doctor, then who am I? What do I want out of a career? What comes next? Uh- Yeah... 13:25 so took me a little bit to, I guess, work through and, and not saying those questions are all resolved, but I think I have better, like- Yeah... framing [laughs] 13:34 that allow me to be a bit more agile in, like, where I go with the work. So that came first. Then probably coffee, like, asks and kind of talking to people, like, friends of friends. 13:44 So for context, like, my whole network is doctors. I don't know anyone who hasn't got a- Mm... medical job apart from, like, my one or two friends who went to do law. [laughs] So... 13:54 [laughs] And you were like, "Well, law school is not on the cards." It's not for me. Like- Well, that said, I did actually consider it and did, like, a post-grad law certificate. Why not? I think that was my- Mm. 14:03 It was, like, kind of... It was really hard to break out of the mindset that I don't have to go retrain and do another degree in order to- Yeah... do something else, because that's all I knew. 14:12 So that was kind of- Yeah... where I started. I did, like, a post-grad law certificate, which was fine, but I'm glad that I... Yeah, that's done now. [laughs] We went through it. 14:23 We went through- Yeah, we went through it and it w- it was not for me. So yeah, just had a lot of coffee, coffee catch-ups, and then met through- Had you... 14:30 Were you still working, were you still working in medicine while this is all going on? I was still working full time. I had kind of mentally decided I'm gonna finish off my two years, because once you- Yeah... 14:41 do two years, you get what's called, like, your full registration. So the way I think I'll kind of explain it is that you get your degree after six years. 14:49 You are, like, a qualified doctor, but you still have some training wheels on because you have a certain degree of supervision. 14:55 After those two years, those training wheels can come off, and you can kind of practice a lot more independently, and it makes it easier to come back if you want to take time off and come back to medicine. 15:05 So I'd mentally said I'll, I'll stick it out for two years, get something for it, and then then I'll quit. 15:11 So yeah, I had people to talk to them about the different career pathways they had taken that were loosely related to science, and I met someone called Andrew Chin, who is an investor with Martu Group, and they're kind of a deep- Mm-hmm... 15:23 investment firm, and that was my first exposure to this idea that you could actually use business as a vehicle to make the impact that you wanna make in the world in, like, a very scalable, fast-paced way. 15:36 And that w- I just found that really fascinating, the interest in, in that. And it was funny because I had always told myself, "Oh, I'm not a businesswoman. I'm just not interested in that world." 15:46 [laughs] This is, like, very corporate and it's not me, and it's, like, a dirty word because everyone's, like, greedy and wants to make a profit and doesn't care about impact. [laughs] Which is completely inaccurate. 15:55 [laughs] But for what- whatever reason, that was the narrative that I told myself, and I- Yeah. Or that, or that you'd been... Like, I think, remember external, yeah. Yeah. And, and, like, and there's the... 16:06 There's so many different reasons why we, like, those narratives come around, and e- even in school, what you're exposed to in terms of careers. Like- Yes... 16:13 when we talked about business, it was always very corporate, like, people going to work at consultancy firms or working for, like- Yeah... multinational corporations. I'd never thought of this, like- Yeah... 16:23 a startup before. [laughs] And- Yeah... investing in early stage. And so then I feel like from the narrative that I know, the next step was sort of the Women's Fellowship. Yeah, that's right. Would that be correct? 16:33 And how did you find out about it? Really random, through a Facebook group. I think I, I... So when I was, like, in the depths of my career and identity crisis, I made a post on this Facebook [laughs] 16:44 page called Creative Careers in Medicine, and it's a Facebook page with doctors, um, Australia and New Zealand. There's a couple thousand, um, who did a non-traditional careers. Mm-hmm. 16:53 And so I was there in desperation, like, asking if anyone had gone through a career pivot, left medicine, done something different. Like, "Please can I talk to you?" 17:02 [laughs] 'Cause I didn't know, I didn't know anyone who was going through the same thing or- Yeah... people were very focused on the pathway and applying for jobs for the next year, and I just knew that wasn't for me. 17:11 So I was very desperate to talk to anyone who had either gone through something similar or was going through it, just to be able to share stories. Posted this. That's... 17:21 Someone randomly, and said, "Oh, you should think about this." So really tangential. I'd never heard of Startmate before. It was just a really random way [laughs] to come across the fellowship. 17:30 [laughs]Also kind of an interesting one, right? 'Cause like that's probably also where you started to value... 17:35 I mean, I'm putting words in your head, but that's maybe where you started to value the power of community as well, is like finding out about this thing that you'd never heard of makes it more legitimate. 17:43 [laughs] Oh, yes. It's like the strongest, like you can't really beat the power of like an in-person referral [laughs] and having someone who can relate to vouch for the thing you're interested in. 17:53 I just find it crazy that putting yourself out there in those ways and having those chance encounters can change the sort of the trajectory of your life and career, which it did for me, for sure. Yeah. 18:03 So then fellowship, let's... So you do the fellowship. What, what happened there? What was that experience? You're still, you're still proper in your first midlife crisis, your first quarter-life crisis- Yes [laughs]... 18:13 I guess. Yeah, definitely. [laughs] I mean, the fellowship I'd say really consolidated the fact that I wanted to like build a career in the startup space and, or, or that was my next move. Yeah. 18:24 Like, it felt like the right people, the right space for me. I loved everyone I was coming across, loved how people were fascinated by problems and were so action-oriented to wanna build solutions- Mm-hmm... 18:34 and how fast things moved. Knew that's kind of where I wanted to go. 18:37 On the fellowship I started a newsletter called, which is kind of trying to bring more visibility to what's happening in the New Zealand startup ecosystem. So I was releasing fortnightly, now monthly-ish, [laughs] 18:48 um, like mini wrap-ups of what's happening- Nice... in the startup ecosystem and different founder profiles, and it was a really amazing way... 18:55 Well, again, a really amazing demonstration of the power of community and able... I just met so many amazing people through doing that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was, it was not an inch of me, I think. 19:06 Yeah, like as a, aside from saying I'd never do business, the other thing I said I'd never do is social media. [laughs] So. I said I would never do marketing, so- [laughs]... you know, here we are. 19:16 [laughs] Funny how things pan out, isn't it? [laughs] I think you have to be careful of saying you'd never do anything- Agreed... 19:21 because I said I'd never do marketing at a time where I worked in advertising, and my only understanding of marketing was like, you know, something like Nestle. Yeah. 19:28 [laughs] And I stand by that I would never [laughs] do marketing. You're like, "I never do this kind of marketing." [laughs] Um, I'm so sorry, Nestle. They were lovely clients. 19:37 [laughs] But it was not, that, that kind of marketing- Yeah... was not for me. So I fully understand. What you mean by never do business, it's kind of the same. Yeah. [laughs] It's got the same ring to it. Well, totally. 19:47 And, and that's actually one of been the, one of the biggest learnings I've had out of the last year, is to be really conscious of those narratives that you tell yourself and where they're coming from, particularly if you're taking like a really firm no or making a strong statement about- Mm... 20:02 the kind of person that you are or the things you can or can't do. Mm-hmm. 20:05 I've learned to actually take a step back and try a bit further and think about where they're coming from 'cause they might not always be grounded in reality. 20:11 [laughs] Yeah, and that's also like checking your blind spots, right? I think we all have preconceived ideas, blind spots, cultural upbringings. 20:18 Human beings are such a messy plethora of different concepts that it's amazing we get anything done. [laughs] Just... All right. Well, let's kind of spit forward faster and go, so you're, you're running Bootstrapped. 20:32 I mean, you're the founder of Bootstrapped, and then you get a job at a little business that we both know a bit about. Called Blackbird. [laughs] Yes. Talk us through how that happened. [laughs] Oh, Blackbird. 20:43 [laughs] Yeah. That happened, I... Well, I, I think about it in two parts. So first is probably meeting the Blackbird team through the work I was doing at Bootstrapped. 20:54 I can't actually remember how exactly, but I met Sam and Phoebe from the Blackbird team, and I just remember... 21:00 Well, actually, I remember Sam Wong was one of the speakers in the Startmate Women's Fellowship, and I just remember hearing her speak. Same for me. Wow, she is so cool. [laughs] Yeah, I was obsessed with her. 21:11 She's so cool and so smart. Yeah, same. And so I was like, "Oh, she's definitely like that." And now it's embarrassing 'cause I'm like, "Hello." Well, now she's like my direct manager [laughs] so like, oh. 21:21 But I remember thinking I wanna be like her when I grow up. Such a cool person. And then we ended up meeting like later on in the year, and people do say never meet your heroes, but that was not the case with Sam Wong. 21:31 She is every bit as awesome as she presents. And also met Phoebe, was like, oh, you know, the team are awesome. They're such cool people. Mm. They're the type of people that I one day would like to work with. 21:41 There was no job, and I actually wasn't looking because I was just focused on seeing out the remainder of my clinical year, wanting to do those two years. Right, so you're still doctoring at this point as well. 21:50 Yep, still doctoring full time, doing Bootstrapped, and just trying to like set myself up for the next move. Mm. 21:56 And then the job or the platform manager role was advertised I think in August or September of last year, and it was a little bit sooner than I was hoping to step into a new role. 22:07 I wanted to take at least three months off after resigning from medicine 'cause truthfully I was just really burnt out. Yeah. 22:12 But decided to kind of apply and apply nonetheless and just see, and then if it worked out, then that, that's great. But if it d- doesn't, then it, it'd be fine. Yeah. 22:21 But I thought it's too good an opportunity when I know the team is like really awesome. Mm. So I applied, negotiate my three months off [laughs] which was great. I did, yeah. 22:28 So I wrapped up my clinical in December, started with Blackbird in February, six months. I think that's a great little lesson in here too, is take that time off that, if you- Oh... you need to. Yeah. Yeah. 22:40 [laughs] Oh, totally. And, and there's no point. 22:41 I think the thing I realized as well is like if I'm burnt out starting this new role, I'm not gonna actually be in a position to give it my best, and I really, really want to, and it's just so important to give yourself the time to recharge. 22:53 If anything, I wish I took longer. Totally. Like after s- If you're in the position to be able to do that is always a good move. Yeah. 22:59 Your role at Blackbird, platform manager, how would you describe your role if you had to describe it in like a paragraph to someone? Yeah, that is a great question, and honestly I'm still refining this because- Yeah... 23:09 I think my role changes much and it's so varied it can be kind of hard to capture what it is, [laughs] which is fine. I like that. So the way I currently explain it is in two parts. 23:18 The first part is to kind of support our investments team on the ground. We're a really small team. 23:24 There's only six of us, to kind of keep abreast of everything that's happening in the New Zealand ecosystem, so making sure they- they've got flow of information, connections with founders. 23:33 So I take a lot of like founder meetings, as well as meetings with other people generally in the ecosystem who we might wanna build relation- to build relationships with. 23:39 And the second part of my role is leading our sort of community engagement, so that can look like involvement in planning Sunrise, creating content, running events for Blackbird on the ground in New Zealand. 23:49 So it's quite a varied role, and every day is quite different, and I think that's part of being like... Even though we are like a team of 50 something, New Zealand team is kind of its own six-person team, so- Mm... 24:00 it's great 'cause I get to do a little bit of everything. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, we work a lot on Sunrise, that's probably what our little laughy jokes are about [laughs] that's always with us. 24:11 [laughs] Well, all right, so question number one is, how do you think you operate? Interesting question. I think the one common thread I really enjoy is looking at... One, looking at things at a macro level. 24:25 So looking at, like, the... You can... 24:26 I think this is probably the part I enjoyed about medicine as well, is like looking at all the different pieces of information or different systems, and pulling all these different things together. 24:38 So pulling together lots of different complex pieces of information and distilling it into something simple, and I really love that. So I love... 24:44 Part of the reason why I really like my role now is 'cause I get to have a broad view of the New Zealand ecosystem, as well as a broad view of Blackbird as an organization. Mm-hmm. 24:52 And then linking up that with kind of what we wanna build in a long-term horizon, and then working backwards to actually action those things. It's probably not a great response [laughs] to your question. 25:04 No, I think it's interesting- Does that make sense? Yeah, it's like- It's kind of like- Yeah... what you like is, like, the long-term strategy, but also being the person that gets to action that bits from the ground. 25:12 So, like, being able to understand, like, the wider scope, so, like, you feel like a part of the bigger picture- Yeah... but then having the ability to kind of build how to get there. Yeah, exactly. 25:21 It's like having that long-term vision, v- like, long-term vision for what you wanna do, and then being the person who kind of carves out the path to get there, and immediate, medium term, and long-term actions. Yeah. 25:31 Which is kind of similar to being a doctor, right? Probably on more- Mm-hmm... even more of a long-term way. But I guess when a patient comes in, you're like, "Well, what's the end problem possibly? 25:42 And then how do we figure out if that's correct?" [laughs] Yeah. That was the... That was actually my favorite part. Yeah, I love problem-solving. 25:48 That was such a fun part of medicine, was that you have to take, like, a patient's whole background, the story that they're telling you when they present, how they look physically through examination, plus whatever investigations you order. 25:59 So bloods, chest X-rays, and you take all of these pieces of information, synthesize them to come to, like, an impression, which is your diagnosis, and it might be 10 different things- Mm... 26:08 because there can often be lots of things going on. But then actually looking at the person as a whole and thinking, "What is the best outcome for this person with how they've presented today?" 26:16 And that's actually different for every single person that you meet. Mm-hmm. The decision you make for a young, fit 25-year-old might be different to an older 97-year-old who might not want as much intervention. 26:26 And, and so it's really tailoring that to that person and considering that long-term when you're making treatment decisions. I love that aspect of medicine, actually. [laughs] Yeah. 26:35 I know you lit up when you talked about it. [laughs] So kind of thinking about, like, a different way of, of that is what, what do you think has been the most valuable skill that you've taken from being a doctor? 26:47 I think it is that ability to, like, pull together and make sense of lots of different pieces of information and distilling it into a path forward. 26:57 And I kind of want to build on more of that as I kind of go forth in my career. Mm-hmm. It's like, you know, working towards roles where that's kind of what I get to do, but on a broader strategic level for a company. 27:09 So I think teaches you a really structured way to solve problems and valuable training. But also, like, being able to communicate in a way that's gonna be effective with the person in front of you. 27:22 When you're a doctor, the diagnosis is only half of it. The other half is actually communicating what you're seeing with your patient- Mm... 27:30 and trying to understand what their priorities are and what type of communication's gonna be most effective for them so that they get the best care. 27:38 And I think learn it comes to maybe more, like, difficult or serious conversations ha- has been I would've gotten that training elsewhere. That's really interesting. I've never thought about that. 27:47 Doctors have a high level of communication and EQ training 'cause they're like- Yeah, you do... they're also in a service role. Oh, that's... Yeah, I mean, medicine is service. Yeah. 27:57 You know, you're looking after patients, and people can definitely forget that. And it's interesting because the... when... 28:03 I, I can't remember the exact stats, but the highest volume of complaints that are made are about communication and poor communication skills or not ef- communicating effectively to patients. 28:14 So that can be they don't feel heard, they're not getting the right information at the right time. A whole range of different things, but it's such a crucial part of the job, and you re- it's sink or swim. 28:24 [laughs] You kind of have to learn how to do it once you're in there. Which is also so interesting to me because, like, to learn the practice of medicine is one whole thing, and then to learn the communication aspect. 28:38 Yeah. Yeah, I never thought about that. Changing track slightly into what you're doing now, platform manager. Mm-hmm. 28:44 And I'd call this, like, a pretty generalist role 'cause you're doing something similar to, like, if someone started an early stage business with only six people, they might be doing something similar to that. 28:52 It might be called something else like a chief of staff or it might be called... You know, there's a lot of umbrella terms that this kind of work can fall under. 28:58 What's been the toughest lesson that you've learnt going into a role like this? I think something I really struggled with in the beginning was actually the autonomy that I was given to do my job, where... 29:08 A, actually a total mindset change from when you... When you're working in medicine, there's a really clear hierarchy of junior registrar, which is kind of mid-level, and then consultant. 29:17 And you know very clearly at each point in time what is your responsibility, what is in your scope, and when it's the right time to escalate or defer to someone more senior than you. It's also very kind of reactive work. 29:29 It's like- Mm... very task-based. So do this procedure, order these scans, discharge this patient. So it's all tasks without nec- necessarily, like, a broader strategic five, 10-year time horizon purpose. Yeah. 29:40 Whereas shifting to this role, I kind of have so much ownership over how I spend my time and the things I want to invest resources into, and that was quite, like, a jarring shift for me to- Mm... be trusted with that. 29:55 Right off the bat as well. [laughs] Day one is- Day one... figure out what you wanna do. [laughs] I'm like, "Are you sure? [laughs] You sure you should be giving me this responsibility?" 30:05 So it was like mov- that, that shift in, like, actually really taking ownership over my work, and, like, thinking about and setting a broader strategy- Mm-hmm... and it being FYI to... 30:15 rather than I need to defer to other people for decisions. Now that I'm more used to it, I really love it, and I don't go back to a different way of working. Mm-hmm. 30:23 I love the autonomy, I love, like, the scope to really think about what I think the priorities are and just try things. I think, oh, that was another, getting comfortable with actually just trying things- Mm-hmm... 30:34 and, like, being- Testing... okay if they fail. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally, 'cause you don't really, like, sometimes you test in medicine, but you don't- [laughs]... really experiment 30:44 because you could get sued, [laughs] for good reason. Yeah. So that's quite a, like, dramatic change in mindset as well, is just, just giving things a go- Mm-hmm... 30:53 and just how, how they go, and be willing to iterate and fail fast. 30:58 And what impact has that autonomy and that kind of, obviously you prefer it now, but, like, what impact do you think that that shift has had on kind of how you now work? 31:09 It's funny 'cause I actually think it's made me a bit more, like, c- confident as a person if I have an opinion on something. 31:16 I think particularly when you spend so long in an environment where kind of patient is always right, you really have to pick your battles, it can be hard to bre- break out of that. 31:27 Yeah, become more confident in my own decision-making, particularly to a role where I have never done it before and had no real frame of reference for what success looked like. 31:37 And so probably really doubted at times the, uh, my ability to, to do it. So I think that's changed in the last couple of months, which I guess makes sense. Like, the start of anything is- Mm... 31:48 is challenging, and with time you can get, become more confident. But I think I'm now more willing to honestly just do things and put things out there than I was before. 31:56 I think I would agonize over getting things perfect, whereas now I'm more willing to just ship it at, like, 80%, [laughs] and that's fine. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, no time for perfection. 32:09 So what i- kind of going back to something a bit more practical, you talked about how being a doctor sort of taught you that problem-solving skill. 32:17 What are sort of strategies that you i- have implemented or implement now? 32:21 But I'm kind of more interested in, like, what are the strategies that you implemented in that period of time where you were trying to go from, I defer to a higher-up, or I don't feel confident with... 32:32 Like, I think the other thing, you have no frame of reference for what good looks like. It's not even just because you hadn't done it before, no one had done this role before. It was a brand-new role. [laughs] Yes. 32:42 [laughs] So there was, there was legitimately no frame of reference. Yeah. What are the kind of practical strategies that you used to figure out how to do that? 32:51 Truthfully, I think it was setting up regular points to reflect and take stock on what I was doing and what was working and not working, because 33:02 it could easily turn into just being completely reactive all the time without actually having a thoughtful, like, look at the data points and what is actually working and not working, and collecting those metrics of success for yourself so you can build that frame of reference for yourself in the future. 33:17 So what I did was, and then I'm still figuring out the best way to do this, but I kind of track all the meetings that I keep, with who, the source of introduction, the time I'm spending. 33:29 Were they value- valuable or not valuable? And I'm also, if I was running an event, data on number of attendees, MP. 33:36 It's just really collecting as much data as I could, and then looking back on it to think, oh, is this... Was... How do, how do I feel about this? Was this a success or not a success? 33:45 What do I want to build on what wasn't working? And then take it forward into the next thing. 33:49 The other thing Sam and I do which I've found really helpful is at the end of every week I send her like a, like almost like a bootstrap newsletter- [laughs]... of how my week's gone. 34:00 [laughs] It's like a bootstrap for my part. 34:02 So I, I email her with, like, how I've spent my time in terms of who I've met with, as well how things are tracking across different projects, kind of shower thoughts that I have on- [laughs]... 34:12 what's working, not working, and then send that to her and that allows us... That's been a really useful exercise for me actually, just to- Think about what you're doing. Exactly. Yep. 34:22 So regardless of whether or not I share it, it, it's useful just to constantly give yourself the prompt to think about what you're doing, and then you can actually get some things on paper and think, actually I've done XXX, XYZ. 34:35 I actually... Oh, I actually am doing this. Okay. [laughs] So I think that, like, being able to build up those data points was really valuable for me. 34:44 Yeah, it's like a personal accou- accountability piece as well, right? Like- Totally. Yeah... 'cause I think you're, you're absolutely right. 34:50 As someone who started only a little bit after you, you can easily finish the week and be like, "I was so busy, but what did I do?" Mm-hmm. What did I do? Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly. 35:01 Like, I feel like I didn't have... I didn't stop, but I don't know what I did. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Which can also be very- Exactly... demoralizing if that happens over and over again. Totally. You need to know. Yep. 35:11 You need to reflect and understand, like, what you've done, quite honestly. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. 35:18 And the other thing I did was, so I set out my strategy right at the beginning, and then forced myself to do, like, a three-month check-in and reflection on, like, do these goals still make sense? Yep. 35:29 What do I need to change? How am I tracking across each of the priority? And that force function was actually again, really, really helpful. 35:37 So I think that was probably the single, like, setting up that regular time and actually sticking with it- Yeah... 35:42 and not just deprioritizing it, probably the single most, like, high impact thing that I've done for my own personal growth and learning over the- Yeah... last couple months. 35:52 Yeah, no, I think those are all, like, super helpful tips 'cause I did a similar thing to you, not at Blackbird, but- I started at, at, at a portfolio company and had all this autonomy and was kind of like, "Help." 36:03 [laughs] You know. [laughs] What do I do with it? [laughs] Yeah, like what do I do? And I, I think that that is... 36:09 It's whether you're a doctor, whether you're a lawyer, whether you work in advertising, whether you- Mm-hmm... 36:13 whether you're just leading a consultancy firm, I think that we talk about how amazing it is to work in startups and, you know, I, I genuinely believe that. 36:21 But I think you do have to talk about the fact that it is a huge mental shift. [laughs] Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So you, you need to kind of- Yeah... prepare. 36:28 Definitely, yeah, definitely one to note, especially if you're coming from a more, like, traditional dictated role in the past. It is, it is a big mindset shift to suddenly completely change tack and- Yeah... 36:39 have to take ownership. [laughs] Be wholly responsible for something quite large. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Yeah, and it's so ex- I don't know, I just love... 36:48 It's a double-edged sword, but I really do love the trust that they have in you to kind of learn as you go, and actually, like, build independently, and trust you to, yeah, I guess just do that, which I s- I'm still amazed by, and I just, I love it so much. 37:03 [laughs] It's, like, an incredible thing when you're like, "Oh, yeah, if you hire really smart people that, like, really wanna do the job, then just let them do it, they'll do it." [laughs] Yeah, exactly. 37:13 Cool, like, great things will happen. [laughs] Will happen. 37:17 We're gonna start to wrap up, but firstly, what do you think has been the eye-opening or, like, positive thing that you didn't expect from a transition from a doctor to startups? The best thing- Ooh... 37:28 that you didn't expect. Honestly, I'm just so much happier. [laughs] I think, [laughs] I think, I think- A lack of depression. [laughs] For me, I had the bar, bar, bar was low. 37:40 [laughs] But I think, I think it was realizing how much I really love this kind of work. I don't think I, I don't think I realized how misaligned medicine was for me until I moved here- Yeah... 37:56 where it's aligned with values. 37:58 I get to be creative, I get to use strategy, strategic thinking, and I get autonomy, and I never in my wildest dreams thought that I could have that in a, in a career, and, like, I am a very career, like [laughs] driven person, and that's fine. 38:12 That's just who I am. And so being able to have that alignment has been amazing. 38:15 And I think as well, just being healthier, having the opportunity to spend a lot more time with family and friends, and probably just forcing me to take stock of what I value and the kind of life that I wanna live, and doing that relatively young, I think has been, has been great, rather than realizing it that, I guess, yeah, a lot f- a lot further down the track. 38:36 And it's also forced me to realize the kind of person that I wanna be, the kind of values I wanna hold, challenge those ideas around identity lightly until they were challenged. Mm-hmm. 38:45 And so I think all of those things have largely just been really positive for my, my, my personal growth. And now I just have a lot more flexibility in the kind of life that I wanna live, [laughs] which is really nice. 38:55 [laughs] More time with my husband. Well, it's, it's so funny 'cause, yeah, when you said you're really career-driven, that's just who you are. 38:59 One of the quotes that I actually had from John, your husband, was, "She's far more driven than I am," and I just laughed- [laughs]... 'cause I was like, "Isn't he... What kind of doctor is he?" Anesthesia. 39:08 [laughs] Yeah, he's an, he's literally, like, one of the hardest kinds of doctor to be, and he's like, "She's just far more driven than I am." 39:13 [laughs] He's a, he's curious and smart, but I think has a good, like, very good head screwed on his shoulders, and isn't focused on work above all else. 39:22 I think we have very compatible views of the kind of life we wanna have- Yeah... which is great 'cause we're married. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's a good thing to find. [laughs] Yeah. 39:32 A couple of quick end questions. 39:33 First one, in the New Zealand ecosystem, it can be New Z- Australian or New Zealand, but I'd love to hear from you in the New Zealand ecosystem, who you think is an operator who you just think is doing great things? Ooh. 39:45 Maybe Shaan Govind. Mm-hmm. So Shaan was, like, the head of people at Halter and kind of was there through a really rapid period of growth. Before that she's worked at Booking.com- Mm-hmm... 39:58 uh, and kind of been a really crucial part of the growth journeys for those companies. 40:02 But she's since come back to New Zealand and founded her own thing called Be Heard Aotearoa, where she's trying to kind of improve diversity in the tech sector- Mm-hmm... which is super cool. So she is doing great stuff. 40:14 Amazing. And if you were to give one life lesson from your own experience to someone else in a similar position, young doctor going through a life crisis, what would your one piece of advice be? 40:25 Just be conscious of the narratives that you're telling yourself, and don't be afraid to, to challenge them. What is your favorite thing about the New Zealand- [laughs]... startup ecosystem? 40:33 Ooh, that's a interesting question. Probably how, like, the s- the stage it's at. 40:37 I think there's a lot of great stuff happening in New Zealand, but people may not necessarily know about it, and maybe we're five to seven years behind where Australia was, but I actually really love that because it makes me really excited of what's actually to come. 40:50 There are so many really awesome Kiwis that I get to meet- Mm-hmm... in my role, and I think could be some great stuff coming out of New Zealand. So I think it's its potential. [laughs] I fully agree with you. 41:00 Me and Joel were just... And this is not meant to be a shameless plug for Sunrise, but me and Joel were just talking the other day- [laughs]... about how this year's Sunrise feels like Sunrise five years ago in Sydney. 41:10 This is gonna be a big one, and it's at the precipice of huge things, and it's so- Totally... rare that in this day and age you get to be in that stage of right before it's huge kind of thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 41:24 And just to finish up, what is your number one prediction for the New Zealand ecosystem for the future? That's an, it's an interesting question. 41:35 I think Kiwis always love to say that we punch above, like, well above our weight. 41:40 [laughs] That's a very, like, broken record New Zealand thing to say, but I, I do think that in the next 5 or 10 years we'll have a disproportionate number of, like, quote unquote, "successful" Kiwi companies to our population size. 41:55 Yeah. Izzy, I wanna say a massive thank you for coming on. You're the first Blackbird. I've been trying really hard not to just make this a full Blackbird employees podcast. Oh. I'm sure there'll be a few more. 42:04 I'm so honored. [laughs] There are so many awesome Blackbirds, so I am very honored to be the first. Yeah. Thank you for coming on, and I'll see you at work. [laughs] See you, see you later. See you on Slack. 42:16 [laughs] See you. And that's it for today. Today's episode was recorded and edited by me, your host, Philippa Newton, with original music composition by Stephen Shouton and photography by Philip Lema Zuria. 42:28 Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.
