Today, I'm connecting with Anitta Krishan, Chief Culture Officer at Hoogly AI.
Today, I'm connecting with Anitta Krishan, Chief Culture Officer at Hoogly AI. We begin with a breath—a literal nervous system–balancing pause—followed by people-first perspectives from a former Trivago, Grab, and TikTok executive now shaping the future of work through an AI-powered Culture OS.
Inside the episode:
Connect with Anitta on LinkedIn.
Check out Hoogly AI for your org.
Connecting with Anitta Krishan, Chief Culture Officer at Hoogly AI.
[Note: This transcript is AI-generated via Descript. Please expect typos]
[00:00:00]
Connecting with Anitta Krishan, Chief Culture Officer, at Hoogly AI.
Anita is a self-styled work futurist. her playground people, culture hypergrowth, her track record trivago, grab TikTok, and now Hoogly.
Through all of these chapters, one thing's clear, It's all about scaling with soul.
In our chat today, we dial into burning Bright without burning out, the day TikTok disappeared overnight in India and what it takes to humanize work in a world that moves fast, gets louder and never stops to see who's breaking.
Plus. I'm very excited that Anitta is a certified breathwork coach, and we're lucky enough that she guides us through a simple breathwork exercise you can do and return to in the moments of overwhelm.
Just a note for this episode, this intro and our [00:01:00] interview may seem slightly different in sound quality. That is because I have got a house full of builders doing home renovations. So this was recorded at the coworking space in a phone booth, slightly different sound qualities and potentially not as good as my lovely Road mic.
Okay. Enjoy the conversation and let me know what you think.
Laura: Anita, welcome to calling Operator. How are you?
Anitta: Thanks so much for having me, Laura. This has been in our calendars for a while and so I'm really excited to share and, hopefully it's exciting for everyone to listen into.
Laura: And I'm really excited because we're starting today's conversation slightly differently. on this show, we talk a lot about the intensity of startup life, the pace, the pressure, the constant recalibration, but we rarely stop to ask what does this pace do to our nervous systems?
And the little secret for our listeners is that you are in fact a operator and a breath coach, the perfect combo. So shall we guide our listeners for a [00:02:00] short breathing exercise? I can be the Guinea pig, but just something that they can return to in moments of overwhelm, chaos, or dysregulation.
Anitta: I think just trying this simple exercise, it's easy for everyone to tune into when they're just feeling overwhelmed. And so, yeah, let's try this with me. So if I can get you to just grind your feet, feel like you in an. Upright position, taking a deep inhale through your nose. 4, 3, 2, 1.
Hold now gently exhale for six counts through your mouth. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Let's do that two more times. Inhaling through your nose for a count of four. Hold for four. Exhale. [00:03:00] One more time. Inhaling through your nose for a count of four. Hold for four. Exhale. So what the prolonged exhale does is telling you your body's safe and you're going into rest and digest, which in normal cases where running around operating very activated and always feeling like your body is just tensed up, and what the prolonged, longer exhale does is just feels like an immediate release.
And I do this before any kind of, I used to do this before in my stressful, work just anytime before going for a stressful meeting. what we've seen in the startup pace, since it's so intense, people's nervous systems are just completely fried. and so for
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: Fried because we've normalized [00:04:00] urgency for such a long time. many founders and leaders operate in a constant state of chronic stress. it is very obvious, when that's kind of the operator, the startup, world and mindset. and our bodies just don't get a signal that it's been safe, and this impacts people's sleep. and it has major consequences in decision making and even having a sense of clarity or creativity and innovation. and so I'm a strong believer every founder needs a breathwork practice. Some kind of conscious. breathing techniques. for me, the meditation and yoga wasn't cutting it anymore. And what led me to breath work, I was feeling completely depleted, and burnt out. And so that's what brought me, into learning how to breathe properly. and now I operate from a ground of sense of clarity and that that's been the life-changing, kind of experience. And so while I do culture transformation at Hoggy on a day-to-day basis, there are a [00:05:00] few nights of the week that I guide, breathwork circles and breath work journeys. And I just love that this is, both coming together in a beautiful way.
Laura: Yeah, it's so beautiful and thank you so much for running us through that exercise. how many times should we repeat that?
Anitta: I think with the breathing exercises, you can repeat that for two, three rounds depending on your time. you can do it as long as, you can really feel that shift in your body, where you're, effort into that different state of mindset. on the flip side, this was more for nervous.
Like, know, feeling overwhelmed and you wanted to get back into a relaxed state. But, if you have an afternoon sluggish kind of feeling where you're like, oh, I really need that espresso shot. Don't reach for the espresso shot. Just do a bit more of an activated breath, where you're able to do a few sharp inhales and exhales. that alertness comes through and it's really a Two minute exercise. And so there's, depending on what state you're looking to get into, there's different techniques. when I say breath work journey, a circle, [00:06:00] it's actually a 75 minute journey where people are lying down and their breathing going through a peak and with music and instruments. what's happening there is we're looking at the breath mechanics, the way the diaphragm is shaped, where is the breath moving to, where is the breath stuck? And helping them, yeah, really breathe through the full entirety of their body. so yeah, I did a 400 hour clinical breath work training, and I got to geek out about the breath for quite some time and, I'm excited that. When I've done this with other founders, they repeat, they wanna do this on a weekly basis. 'cause they see the difference in the way they're, showing up at work. To their board meetings and people are asking them, what are you doing differently? And like, oh yeah, just, you know, breath work.
and people are like, oh, Wim Hof. Like, there's different techniques. and I think finding your own way in that, and starting with the simple exercises like this, and many people just do box breathing, which is a 4, 4, 4. That, through, through that. There's [00:07:00] different ways to do it. it's more about just finding time.
and we did this by the stage when we won an award, at the ASU+GSV Summit in San Diego. And believe it or not, before, my colleague went up on stage. We did breath work right beside the stage. were,
Laura: So good.
Anitta: we were literally doing breath work before the stage.
and then he went up and did his thing. We won. It was just, I think these kind of the moments which he talked about it, like the behind the scenes, like here was the swim coach with making sure I was on time with the timer, and then we did breath work before I went on stage. And so I love that. I love that we're seeing value in this beyond, the impacts of it and how the nervous system can respond to these even small, exercises is a huge difference.
Laura: that's so great. Actually, I, had a chiropractor appointment at the end of last week and she's quite a holistic chiropractor I'd just been for a week, 10 days in Sydney. I've been running podcast events, I've [00:08:00] been going to work events, I'd been going to sunrise, and I was just go, go, go.
And then I had a moment that I went to stay with a friend and she's going for a really challenging time, so I just had no rest. And the chiropractor said to me. You need to be conscious about your movements. All this is showing up everywhere in your body. Take one deep breath before you go onto your next task.
'cause you are just operating on autopilot.
Anitta: Yeah,
Laura: Because I also wanted to share that vulnerably because lot of people said to me in Sydney, how do you do it all? And it's like, you know, maybe at an expense for my body. So I am just learning that mind and body comes first.
Anitta: Absolutely.
Your body is giving you so much signals to slow down and it just comes down to like how you sleep, what happens when you wake up. Like just everything about. How you operate needs to be a lot more mindful. and everybody's moving at a million miles per hour. And, I tell folks, if you're walking, you come, you're like, did I take a breath?
Like, you're, you're breathing, but how, how was that breath [00:09:00] quality? and I sigh, I do deep sighs now.. If catch myself that I've been going, you know, going too fast and I haven't had a moment to take a deep breath, you'll hear a very loud sigh. And I, I think we need to start normalizing that, because, and it just releases so much tension that people hold onto, and yeah, the moment you, start noticing your breath and taking that, really being mindful about pausing, it makes a world of a difference. You show up, you know, meeting the next person or go heading to that next meeting with so much more clarity than going from one jumping on one call to the next, or, you know, go, go, go meeting the next person. I can't stress out how much, this is an importance, uh, of this. And I was, doing a presentation for a company. this is what I love. Like I
go back now to some organizations to talk about breath work. and I find that people are. they're able to say how much of a shift they've seen in a short amount of time.
that's the [00:10:00] important, pieces for it. I think people who are at that stretch of burnout who just haven't had that moment, it's really hitting that pause, reconnecting with your body and understanding that you wanna be there for the long run and being able to do this sustainably. And it's not about push, push, push, go on vacation for seven days, come back, push, push, push. No, like my body just said, I am not going to be able to do this anymore. and I wanted to completely, give my nervous system, a complete. reset, and rewiring of that. And that meant just tuning into the breath and the body again. and as soon as I finished that and when I come into, a meeting, I can already sense in the room, like listen to the energy in the room or even on a Zoom call. Oh wow. It looks like they had a rough night. They haven't slept. This person is, I'm like, ah. And then I had someone, I had another executive, during an interview tell me, once they asked me what my morning routine was, [00:11:00] they asked me if I work out in the morning.
And I was like, well, this, this a trick question. was like, we didn't get into the workout. Like, I was like, yeah, I go to the, the studio downstairs, I do some yoga, get him the good 'cause I don't trust anyone that doesn't have any movement in, part of their daily routine. I was like, oh wow.
That's like a very bold statement. I get it. I understand what he means. it's because you haven't given your, mind, a moment to pause, to really do something that's, just tuning into your body and centering yourself. And then they want you to show up, with someone who has clarity, who really gets it and they've dedicated.
If you can't take an hour out of your day to do this, maybe you had an hour to doom scroll on Instagram, but,
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: but you didn't have the time to work out. And so the movement, getting that, in the morning is, really important. Even if it's just a walk to the beach or dropping your kids off at school, or it's physically going to a gym or doing some yoga. Something in the morning is essential [00:12:00] downtime. And, and a lot of these leadership gurus like Robin Rema, talk about the 5:00 AM club and all. You don't have to wake up that early. You can do it early if you want to, but finding that moment, squeezing it into the busy schedule, even if it's a lunch break, kind of activity.
And I, I think people feel guilty, especially founders. It's like, you can take time off to do this. And they're just like, oh, but we have meetings. you need to schedule it in if a morning is not gonna work, 'cause you slept late, evening, you have responsibilities during the day, you need to fit in an hour.
Like between figuring out how you eat lunch and adding an hour of movement in there is, something that is so important. And I'm on this wavelength. I now understand why that leader asked me that question. And they really wanted to understand whether they could trust my judgment on some of these tough things that we would need be navigating together.
And it stuck with me as a question that I would Yeah. What do you do for yourself, as an operator? What do you do to, center yourself [00:13:00] again and really just catch yourself in, being able to be on a really balanced kind of way of operating. and none of, you know, when I say describe an operator as a firefighter, none of that screams I'm centered firefighter. But you can be,
Laura: It's so true, and I think us as operators, whether we're already in an executive leadership team or we are supporting the executive leadership team, I think we can embed wellness practices into the organization and lead by example, tiny little things like making 30 minute meetings, 25 minutes so that somebody can like just catch their breath and look away from the screen or just get up from their desk in between calls.
I always really love that part, and maybe this like resonates with you it's just helping the team lead by example as to, yes, business needs to get done and we are all working towards that, but what practices can we embed in our culture in our day to day that supports that.
Anitta: I think you're spot on. I think people, [00:14:00] even if it wasn't part of the culture, if individuals started doing this part of their own way of how they operate, like their own playbook on this is how I operate, this is how I like to communicate, it would solve so much more. I had a colleague who did these five minute meeting, the breaks in her calendar back in 2014. And the way she was just operating, she's like, oh, I need to pause between the next meeting. I can't go back to back. And, and she was just a lot more structured in the way that it would do that. And we would just be like casually rolling in. whereas I was at another company, they just ended on time. they never ran over and that was part of their culture, which I appreciate that there's value in, in a time in another company, it, our meetings went over. We're, we're talking like long over and people would just, like, there's no sense of respect for people's time, et cetera. It was just like leaders coming together and, going on and on.
And I, would just clear my day knowing that this strategy meeting can turn into all kinds of things. but it's this [00:15:00] structuring it in your culture. I always go back to it around, can you make sure that the calendar's programmed this way? and then even like introducing focus hours was always a debate in every company I've been a part of. They're like, well, people will focus when they want to. Yeah. But they wanna focus during this time. But people are gonna throw calendar invites at them. How do we make this a company-wide, you know, Wednesday mornings there's no meeting.
I'm like, oh, but what would people do during that time? I'm like, focus. focus like.
Laura: The what?
Anitta: They would work like, like do real work, deep work, not the work that they are doing before they get to work or after hours. they didn't understand this concept of deep work. I would go to a cafe on a Sunday and do that because I'm passionate about what I wanna do and, I just needed the head space without meetings to do things that shouldn't be the norm, that I have to do that on Sunday.
This was, six years ago in Singapore when I started doing this. I'm like, wait, why are we sitting in a cafe on a Sunday? how is this normal? And so I [00:16:00] started advocating for these kind of focus hours, wellbeing days off all of this, during the pandemic because we were just on all the time during the pandemic and I said, this can't be the culture now. And now with people being demanded to return back to office and things like that, the commute time, everything we're just. We're just undoing everything. we were able to prove that we could do in a remote first, virtual first kind of environment. And I think more and more organizations, this is where the lack of trust is kicking in. Wednesday morning focus hours. What would they do? They would focus, but that trust. Well, because the lack of trust is there. Executives just don't know what people would do with that time. And you're kind of like, no. It's just giving people the time and Headspace to do that.
And, I've always, like when my team asks about how I get things done in my day I share how I put task in the calendar. I need time programmed in my calendar to be able to do the work I need to do or else I'm never gonna be able to, to get past it. And I think these are the things that. There's [00:17:00] always things, fires that need to be fought and things get moved around. But at least I've done my part by scheduling it in my calendar. and, showing that that one thing that's moved, if you've seen that deck being that for this deck, and it's being moved on my calendar every day because there's other fires that we fought, at least it's full transparency.
I haven't been able to get to it because there's other things that have, come up, but it's being able to put all of that in. And if there is no room in your calendar to do all of these things this is when you, know, you're at your max. and something needs to shift. and that transparent model of just really sharing, this is what I'm working on, this is what I'm not, haven't even touched yet. and
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: am the first to say, I'm working on these two things. I haven't been able to get through 7, 8 on my agenda. Probably didn't come in a couple weeks. it's not the top thing on my agenda. And I started saying that people would, would like, oh, thanks for letting me know. Like, so like being very clear with that expectation that you're not able to work on it, whereas people, [00:18:00] yeah, yeah, I'll get to it, I'll get to it. And they're over promising is what
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: in the startup world where everyone takes on so much. and now I'm just like, I, I couldn't get to that.
This is what I'm working on instead. and it's just replaying that prioritization for other people. So they also, understand there's, different things you're working on.
Laura: one of my favorites is this is what I would put down to get to that, and it's a beauty.
Anitta: yeah, exactly. And especially
asking that as a chief of staff, I used to ask that all the time and be like, like, Hey, can you get this? I'm like, cool. okay for me to drop this and work on this instead. Yes, of course.
Like you can, just hearing that reaffirmed, I need to drop this in order to be able to get that done, is a huge learning. seeing [00:19:00] people operate that way. 'cause there's only a certain amount of time in the day. and the juggling act, you need to be really good at it and be able to say it's not about getting everything done we're not super humans.
And I learned that the hard way where I did everything, a, a certain way and, the way I operated, like it was just 200% all the time.
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: And, it is just not feasible. I constantly revisit this book called Burnout Gamble, by Hamon, a good friend of mine, and there's stages of burnout and how to prevent that.
And I would go back as a checkpoint to be like, okay, this is where I'm at now. This is what I need to do to get back into it. And, that means taking a longer break, or going on sabbatical and never coming back like that. That's the situation. Assessing how far has this gone? and then like normalizing it.
I think you mentioned as well, normalizing it to say that you're burnt out or I really need to step away from the, take a mental health day tomorrow. um, I think proud to create that TikTok where it was such a fast [00:20:00] paced environment.
the whole company operated on eight week sprints. eight weeks is a, short amount of time. Like I, we get it for a product sprint, like shorter sprints. But as a company, to move in that way, in a bimonthly kind of setup was just intense. and I found people, it's like, I just need a Friday off.
I'm like, take it off. just take the time off, like take the day off. and we would openly share that. I just need a day to catch up. I'm about preventative versus the reactive kind of, approaches to things.
and I think that's what it's setting the tone and setting that, giving permission to do these things. and just being authentic about it. Like I have Fridays off. part of my schedule now and I got a call say, Hey, do you have five minutes? And typically if I did I would answer it, no issues.
But this time I responded, I'm in a quiet area getting a neck massage, like a foot massage, like I think it was foot massage 'cause I still had my phone it was reading on my phone and, and I was like, wow, how awkward is that to tell [00:21:00] someone like in a professional environment but I was like, no, it's my day off and this is what I'm doing right now and I can't pick up the phone 'cause I'm in a quiet area. and yeah. And when I say I'm in a quiet area, usually it's at the coworking space. And this time I was like, no, I'm getting a, getting a foot massage. You know, paddle was intense and I need to take a break. And so normalizing all of this, we're human, and to. You know, I'll also say, I need four hours focus to dive into this data.
I'll come back with my feedback. And I love when people send me something and leave me a tag to be like, Hey, can I get your feedback by X? It's all async. I go back, I get my own time. I find a moment where I can give this task my undivided attention, get it done, provide the notes and the Figma sticky. and I know exactly when they're gonna get it, making sure their time zone, that they get it, and they have what they need by when they need it. and that's how we're operating now in a world where everything is async can be done. You don't need long meetings to discuss [00:22:00] things. standups in a form of writing weekend checks we do through Ley, which I love when it's not a, you know, roundabout discussion and taking so much time. And so I've found ways along the way to just these kind of humanizing practices into work. I look at my current team, we love working with each other because we all have, a passion point outside of work, whether it's a professional ballerina or a breathwork coach.
there is other elements. because our time is our entire life, like, I like to compartmentalize things. And so I do feel like, okay, this is hoggle time. This is what I need to get done all of today. go, go, go, go get this done. and this is my time at breathwork. This is what I'm gonna do on another day. And so there isn't much room for us to stretch it out beyond like what we are needed in each of our places. And so I love that.
Laura: Coolest team ever.
Professional ballerina, breathwork, second time founder.
Anitta: I think it's just rockstar. Yeah. Like [00:23:00] the feedback I got early on when I joined was you know, I'm just doing breath work. I'm in Bali and I was, but your experience, you're this. And I'm like, ah, yeah. You know, you get to a point where I guess for me it's more of the ego death experience where you're just kinda like, yeah, that was me before.
I've learned it all. I've done it, I'm tired. My body just needs a break and, I wanna do something that's meaningful and high impact. And when, the mission came towards Hoogly on making work human again, that was important for me. wearing multiple hats, whether that's that operator, chief of staff, chief people officer, I've done roles like head of product before as well. And for each of these kind of different roles. I've always learned from the leaders that I got to work with. and the way different departments think. So I've never been that traditional HR person that's always been a policy police like far from that. I'm like, can we forget about policy right now?
But I think of this as a human situation and what can we do? Can we go beyond, you know, do something [00:24:00] nice here? And I love those kind of environments where there is a little bit more autonomy to think about what is the right thing to do versus, but the policy says like, yeah, but the policy is probably updated. the policy probably wasn't revisited. if it says 1996 on it or whatever, like really outdated things. I just don't operate that way. And, I was very lucky to have those environments, whether at Trivago or Grab or TikTok. And prior to that, I was an educator in, Canada, in leadership, education, leadership development. All these things just put together, like what would that ideal environment be? And, and instead of conforming to a certain way of working or, companies and how corporate should be, I've just said, no, that's, not how I'm gonna do work. this is not operate and I wanna either create companies that value that kind of mindset that are innovative. and I love when I hear headlines of. CEOs just making really like bold decisions around, you know, tell me why AI can't do this. And like the [00:25:00] Shopify example for on around hiring, I'm like, yeah, just ask those tough questions upfront so that people know, this isn't a free for all.
Just getting headcount and then having to do layoffs later. after seeing what hypergrowth can do, during good times and then what that looks like during really, you know, horrible economic, climate, what that means on the flip side is just really sad to see companies, do that.
And, I see this as the biggest problem at the moment where there have been a lot of money injected into companies and the first thing people do is hire, hire, hire. whereas now I can confidently say for our organization at Hoogly, the magic number can be easily be 12 people. we have like X number of customers or like grow significantly, I think the magic number can be 12 if we were being really efficient with how we use ai, how we are able to, define people's roles and make sure that the individuals have all the tools they need. that's the environments that really understand it and get it.
and so when [00:26:00] investors ask us, oh, what are you gonna use your recent raise for? Move faster product, we need two roles, maybe another engineer and a data scientist. that's how we are seeing it. It is not like, oh, now we're gonna hire an army of people to go out and do something. Actually, no, we can do that way more efficiently with an AI agent instead.
Laura: And you've seen some crazy moments as you like to call them, and also your LinkedIn profile calls your work futurist. So I'm very excited to unpack this, but as you kind of nodded to, your resume spans everything from pre to post IPO at trivago, also hypergrowth at TikTok. How do we even begin to unpack this arc across trivago, Grab, TikTok, Consulting and now Hoogly? what are the stories that you have that you'd like to share to this audience?
Anitta: for me, the, arc, like the through line it's always been scale and soul. it's always been with companies that there was just something about the leadership. There's something there that they wanted to do something [00:27:00] different.
There was real humility around, We're not getting this right, we wanna do this. Like, we think you can add value here. And I never applied for any of these organizations. It was all through people seeking me out because they knew I could add value to that. And I always, when I go in, there's always this question I'm like, what are two things you're, you're going to move the needle on. And I'll, say whether it's performance and leadership development .
disappears. First performance review comes in six months in, like, she said she's working on these two things and that's exactly what she's moved the needle on, those two things. And so I've always went in with this kind of mandate of, this is the challenge I'm tackling.
and so it was very crystal clear ' cause I needed that to focus on some anchor onto something. And I knew, okay, this is my thing. I can be autonomous, I can really drive the change. so I was really lucky to be part of these companies where I got to be obsessed with how we grew fast, but also without losing the human side of things.
at Trivago, I joined when we were [00:28:00] 200, and helped it scale, through IPO to 1600. this was back in 2014. We were experimenting so boldly. This was the first time, you know, I went to a company where they had unlimited vacation. Like this was, you know, unheard of and Travago was based in Düsseldorf, Germany. It's not
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: screaming Silicon Valley, but the values, everything about the company was very unique. And so there was the flatten hierarchies, no titles internally. It was like, we're looking at performance management.
They're like, we were suggesting all the HR tech stacks back then was even worse. There was nothing innovative out there at that time, the CEO looked at it and said, yeah, you'll have two engineers. You can build it. Build what you need. And I was like, what? and it became so like that's where this concept of building, products that you needed for your department, and we took that further, that worked out so well for us that The tech team was decentralized into the departments, so marketing had their own and like, it was just a very cool company for that size. [00:29:00] and there was just these rituals a secret trip every year for the entire company, every
Laura: Oh.
Anitta: And it was called Trivago on tour to go in theme, of course with the travel company. But that trip was a highlight. It was the trust building trip. where the moments were created. And I think there were three other events, a strategy summit where we would come together in the new year and share what the priorities are for the, rest of the year. There was the annual year end party, the secret trip, and then there was a summer party. These were the four events and it happened every year. Like you were looking forward to it. We invited alumni to these events you can really see how the culture and the values was a big part of it. And the CEO took part in onboarding every week just for the values workshop.
During that values workshop, if there were new leaders coming in, like leaders who were managers somewhere else and joining us. He was already pointing out red flags to HR to say, Hey, this person has a very traditional mindset about what leadership is coming from. A very [00:30:00] manager, supervisor, like the language that they're using is a bit concerning. read the room immediately and, would be able to share that. And I think that's important where if you see an executive who cares so much about the values, the culture, the leadership, behaviors, traits that they wanna see in the company, and that, redefined it for me. I knew I could reimagine performance reviews to be 360.
Feedback was looking at the impact individuals had, but also what was their long-term contribution to the culture.
Are they a culture .
carrier that's gonna be with us for a long time? Do they really get the trivago values? and then ever since working at organization like that, I said, okay, I need to be part of companies that understand this.
And as much as I was part of interviews, I was also interviewing the leaders and like myself, do I want to work for organizations like this? And when Grab head hunted me, like Grab was based outta Singapore, I was in Germany. We got headhunted for this role. by the time we got to the interview with the founders, there were a lot of tells that I [00:31:00] could see what the culture would be.
I knew my role would be in leadership development and performance, redefining performance management culture for the company. and when the co-founder interviewed me and started assessing me for their four Hs around humility, hunger, heart, honor, I was like, oh, she's, asking questions related to their leadership principles to see if we fit like we would be a match.
as much as she was interviewing me, I also valued that they really cared about these, topics and wanted to bring in the right senior leaders. and I love that. and this is where for me, I grabbed when I went in and said, can we rebuild? Can we reimagine performance this way.
I'd love to build this. All I need is two engineers and not many people. Like is she crazy? Like two engineers to do all this. I did it at travago. I knew it would work.
How I would do it and here's how it would work for Grab, so it wasn't a copy paste exercise, it was actually customizing it then for grabs, values, the leadership behaviors that Grab had. and it was a bit of a culture shock because they were kind of [00:32:00] like, whoa. it's a very different Asian to the way the Germans operate to how Singapore was offered. She's like, she's a bit bold, a bit too bold for us, but like, you know, okay, we'll trust her. But I, went in more like a, you know, and I had a small team with me and bless them.
they were really, most teams are called paper operations and my little team is always called like a black ops team because we're literally some kind of mission impossible. We're trying, and I love that there's people who trusted me in this mix and like, what, you wanna implement a new tool in eight weeks?
The whole company's gonna use this performance. I'm like, yeah, yeah. We got it. We got it. And there'll be a lot of naysayers on the, rest of the team where they're like, we need to come up with a backup solution on Workday in case this experiment that Nita's doing isn't gonna run. when I got it done, everyone's like, yes.
We were all like, you know, behind her on this. I'm like, no, you weren't. my rules were very simple. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna work on it. If it doesn't work, it's on me. No one else is gonna be blamed for it. I would take ownership over it. And that instilled a lot of [00:33:00] confidence in people where they would say, okay, at least she's responsible for it.
She's owning it, she's gonna see it through the end. And when I got it done, it was kind of like. Oh, we did it. this is great. And my team was just like, yeah, if we work for leaders, we wanna work with people who are willing to chase after things really feel, comfortable with it. And, that's kind of what I created where it said, okay, let's reimagine perf management.
and looking at both as a exercise of leadership and culture transformation together. and this is how you embed it in every part of your, from hiring to onboarding about values, putting it into your perf management, discussing how promotions even the promotion rubric should have. How have you been a culture carrier?
You we don't want to
be just promoting brilliant jerks who've just brought in, are great at sales, but, you know, suck at the culture part. we want the real, like we don't care if you've done that. those tough kind of conversations and choices need to be made early on and be part of the culture. and I, got to do that.
both Travago and Grab allowed for that. [00:34:00] And, that's how I built my, personal brand in focusing on that work futurist aspect where you're completely reimagining every part of HR and policies, and injecting the culture of that company's specific values.
And it became really for me to do that for every company. And then would say that all that went throughout the window when I joined TikTok. I'll leave it at that. 'cause that was a different, that was a different, different, completely different ball game. And that has fun stories that I'd love to share.
But it's just very different, different environments. But it definitely shaped who I am today
Laura: Wow, so impactful.
And I also love, that you've coined this term solving mission impossible culture challenges. it's so great. for those who experiences really, you've transformed organizations there, so if you had to pick, lessons that stuck with you during that time or things that still surprised you because you solved [00:35:00] them, then what would it be?
Anitta: I think for me, the, the surprises is, around, working with that intentional kind of mindset that what we're doing, the decisions that we're making today, is about humans. it's
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: employees and what would they say when they walk away, even if they're being laid off or let go, what are they gonna say about the company and how it was handled, how it was done, meant a lot for me.
that was the examples that for, and I learned that by the time I got to TikTok. it was important for me that I've built this, not like that culture bit, but also that I wanted to be known as someone who's building on that people first kind of mindset. And you can do both.
You can run a successful business, but also look after your people. I think at TikTok it was really lucky because we had. we were doing well. and so we
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: means to, in moments of crisis, be able to reward employees, financially. And then that made, made a huge difference.
But also being able to just be human about the entire experience. [00:36:00] and yeah, world class leaders it was a dream because I got to hire the, I got to put together a list of the best leaders that worked in some of the largest tech organizations and go after those leaders and be able to hire them.
that's how the attraction worked. Like it was so much fun. and when they came on board and the minute they said, okay, cool, I need this, this, this. I'm like, wow, they're hitting the ground running. 'cause they've done this before. They, know exactly how. And it was bringing a whole bunch of operators and leaders together to. Yeah, to move, super fast, to be able to scale, TikTok to 50,000 in three years is like that, that's, that is mission impossible. Like when I say that out loud, I'm just like, I don't even know how I was, how that happened. But it was with a great team and, being able to literally build a plane while flying it. and in the midst of all this intense global geopolitical topics that, were occurring. But for me, the through line through there was how would I do this [00:37:00] in the most humanist way possible? and when I, when I left, like that's what I was known for. I'm like,
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: a sticky problem, like, can we get Anitta on this?
Like, I'd be out in like dealing with another, another issue somewhere, pocket of a quarter of, the world and someone would say, can, can we get a Anitta on this? Like, why isn't a Anitta on this call? it's because. If it wasn't done well, it could go horribly wrong. it could be one of those, you know, nightmare stories.
And like you know, headlines were TikTok was always on everyone's radar. And I love that when it was needed for the human element of it. People like, okay, you know, this was handled really well in India. can we use some best practices and examples from there? yeah, just those were the defining moments where I, during the toughest times, I made sure that. we stayed true to how we treated people was the most important. And TikTok allowed for that. In other companies, I wasn't able to do that. whether they did like the budget constraints, the leadership behavior, there are [00:38:00] multiple things. I don't identify with organizations like this.
So for me, that's the parts where it really made me more vocal about acting, with conviction,
saying, if you're not gonna treat people as humans, if you're going to do things that are, you know, like, like ethical things is very important for me. Like, I think growing up was always about fairness and treating people, really well.
that stuck through, and I think this is, it's such a simple exercise, but if there is, something where you can get leaders, like working with the right group of leaders, remarkable things can be done.
Laura: So what is your, mental model for that people first principle.
Anitta: It comes into the values and, being very clear with the leadership as well. you know, if I give an example. at TikTok, there was a situation where we scaled up India and then there was a ban within India for a national ban.
And that meant TikTok. we had to seize operations in India. And that's tough after you scale the team to 2000. And for me, [00:39:00] looking at that situation, I said, okay, if we are going to have to, you know, we're gonna figure out how we find different roles for the entire team. First off, there's no one gonna be let go.
We're gonna. Figure out how we redeploy the team. And so that was an eight month operation where I said, okay, we're gonna retain as much as possible while we are still, you know, fighting to get back into the market. So it wasn't a get out, leave the market. It was really looking at what can we do exhausting all possible options, alternatives before having to make that, tough choice. And then when the time came to actually do the redundancies, the layoffs, not redundancies, but the layoffs specifically. at that point went back to leadership team and said, what can we do today that gives everyone confidence that they would boomerang back to us in a year from now if we reentered the market. And, you know, that was the kind of the mindset where I said, look, we have to think about all of these individuals coming back to us when we reenter, and nobody was thinking in that way. Everyone's like, okay, here's your severance package. Goodbye la la No, my severance, like [00:40:00] the topic around that when I asked about budget and they're like, no, do what you need to do. sure that the, this was during the pandemic. So made sure that their healthcare was extended. Making sure that, also understanding cultural nuances where these are like dual family homes where that one breadwinner is looking after in-laws and you know, their entire family. I'm like, okay, let's make sure that they have that extended health insurance.
Um, looking sure that there's financial stability to a certain time, making sure we're looking at vesting schedules, of equity. There are a lot of elements and, and I did talent reviews, talent reviews with the CEO O sat down and if he only had time at 11:00 PM for one hour every day. You bet I'm going through 2000 names, but one by one asking why this person can be redeployed here or there, you know, really being intentional with that.
And, for me that the model for that people first meant looking at the positive situation out of it. outcomes that could be in the future, in this case, you know, most people would be upset about seizing operations in [00:41:00] India, but people were thanking us for that they, were on payroll for so long that we like, you know, did our best to redeploy them.
Other people went off to other markets, so multiple things were done before that. And I, love that kind of care went into a simple exercise where people were like, yep, gimme your names goodbye. Cut access, cut off. they can't log in. They get this, you know, that for me is very cold. and I've heard about people who've worked at organizations, large tech companies for more than 10 years, just getting a simple email and goodbye that is not okay, especially for large companies. there is ways to have, done it in a more human way and a conversation with your manager is needed, like the end, like being able to see
Laura: The basics.
Anitta: the basics, the basics is needed. and so looking at how would I feel if I was treated this way? that for me is the other piece where we're looking at it and this, all of this needs that leadership buy-in, like a more humanistic kind of way of looking at it. and I've been really lucky to work with companies that, that [00:42:00] had it. if they didn't have it, I was out the door. I am not identifying with those types of organizations or leaders.
I'm very particular with that. 'cause I wanna uphold this brand of what I've built for what I stand for and what I bring towards companies. And, and that, that culture is being able to redefine it and transform it is what excites me.
Laura: Oh, I feel like everyone needs a Anitta in their life, and I have so many questions and I'm so conscious of time too. But to round out this section, you are a former Travago, Grab and TikTok exec. What would you like our operator audience to learn from you as almost like a summary of those experiences with the framing of how to be a better operator?
Anitta: you know,
understanding that culture can't be copy pasted. And so as an operator you're looking at how do I maintain the rhythm of the business, making sure that the culture is like the foundation of everything. And then over-communicating with leadership [00:43:00] around what we're trying to create.
and for me, It's understanding the context of each company. It was one thing, but also starting with the listening and not assuming, just 'cause it worked a certain way in a different company or a different startup, it's not gonna work for this company. And so being really intentional about listening, and then me, the values is everything.
Operationalizing the company values and also even asking. Exec team, are these values still true? are you true to these values at this moment? Do you need a values work? Like a refresh exercise? And you'll laugh, but every company I went to needed a values refresh. They were like, yeah, like only
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: was like, Nope.
This is, this is who we are. we're them. Like, okay, great. Let's make sure that this is infused into the way you do performance, into the way you onboard folks. Making sure that during the all hands meetings there's spotlights on people who are culture carriers in the company. Don't just celebrate Pat the sales team on the back all the time.
there are other teams who are high performing and we [00:44:00] wanna share more of those stories of what makes a high performing team. and so it's really taking the values on posters or the, the walls of the office and really setting the tone of how you hire, assess leadership traits, give feedback on impact and culture, and being able to solve these people problems by actually listening to the people.
It's as simple as that, and that's Where Hoogly comes in and being able to listen to employees and giving leaders the coaching they need to act on that feedback. So it's all done in real time. So there's not this whole big survey. Do action planning, do all this six months go by, the next survey comes out again, like, no, we want to address some of these topics early on. And so as operators, we need to think about how we do this. And now in this day and age, of course, how do you inject AI into, these elements?
Laura: did you ever write about what you built as that performance product at Grab that we could link to the show notes?
Anitta: I didn't write
about it. whether it's at Grab or at [00:45:00] Travago, you know, I didn't write about it, but, I am happy for people to connect with me on LinkedIn and, and share a bit more about how it can be built. I am also dabbling with performance now too. So more to come on what I can further build.
because I do see myself as a builder in, tackling some of these And I think, of an open source kind of way of
Laura: Um, nice.
Anitta: can use. I won't even
Laura: Yeah,
Anitta: it. Like, here's, here's how you can use this. and, how, because lot of HR professionals struggle with this. and even if Chief of Staff's thinking about they're all looking at culture, this is the other part of chief of staff needing to dabble in the HR world because culture is owned by everyone. It's, it's a bigger
Laura: yeah,
Anitta: than just so can, including leadership performance. I think we can do an entire session on just performance.
Laura: yeah, totally. we will be launching a book with Anita.
Anitta: I, I'm
Laura: It'll be.
Anitta: on a book which, eventually will come out, but it's [00:46:00] more around, yeah, looking at leadership and, this concept of humanizing work and then what that means and I think it's part storytelling, but part also playbook on how operators can actually go about, carrying this out in their organizations.
And it, it's a complete mindset shift around, leading without a title. Like people can do
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: all stages of it. plenty of stories like the current Travago, CEO, people dug in, he joined Travago as an intern back in the day and now as the CEO of the company, like there is opportunities for, everyone to, have an impact if, they really operate from this kind of mindset, well, how can I be a Wendy Rhoades for this organization?
It, really changes your perspective on, how you do your work.
Laura: And talking about impact. So you've redirected your focus and attention from super high growth environments to a very early stage AI native company called Hoogly AI. What's your 30 second pitch on Hoogly?
Anitta: Hoogly is
basically, [00:47:00] doing employee engagement without surveys. we're not doing any, boring static surveys to, uncover insights is all through a conversation with ai. and so we have then AI, who's a culture partner that's, essentially having a conversation with you and understanding what are the pain points, and then coaching managers to act on that feedback.
And so we're really excited. We are one of the HR tech stacks that are AI led, not just the legacy product, adding ai. and so you know, we've had some really amazing conversations with leaders where they. This is the tool to create that people first company, but also instead of just measuring culture, we're giving you opportunity to build it.
I love it because I get to work with other chief people officers to do this. And that's been really exciting for me to, to be on the other side of the table, with that insight of understanding what the pain points and problems cultural challenges are in companies. and then building a product for that. I love it. Being able to, build, Hoogly is, is a dream. and I get to weave in the [00:48:00] leadership coaching elements, and, employee engagement, mixed together.
Laura: I imagine you're almost playing a change management role, right? With these, culture and people leaders. I.
Anitta: So there's being able to come in. we spark the culture transformation, in these companies. it's about really harnessing AI to be able to do this, but also shifting that focus to the human work instead of all the time wasted on, some of those, tasks that can be completely done.
And now, like we're taking six months to a week, we're moving the timeline, shifting the timeline significantly, with Hoogly and, we've seen leaders really like that. there's the real time element to it. the actions are everything from small to y and by the time you get your insights, you can dive deeper into say, why is this team's results alignment low in this team? and then our AI coach is replying back with, it's because him, the, the feedback coming in from the team is that one of the new product leaders isn't as approachable as they would like, this is why this is here, here are things [00:49:00] that they can do. It's all happening in real time. that conversation, the insights coming in together, never had, there's not a product out there that does this.
and so this is where the two awards initially, came in and that initial 1 million raise to be able to build a product. now we're in that growth phase of customer acquisitions and technically the growth phase. and I love it 'cause I get to build. Rebuild again
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: work with, other chief people officers to really help transform their culture. so I get to dabble with a lot more companies than just being at one end doing all the firefighting.
Laura: congrats on those awards. That's great early signal in addition to the raise. I guess at your back to building in your role as Chief Culture Officer, what's top of mind for you this quarter and into the rest of half two.
Anitta: we spent the time building a great product, and shifting now the focus to the growth element and really being able to tell that story better of why Hoogly is redefining this, re-imagining this space completely. and so I'm excited [00:50:00] about that. as an operator, for me, it's going back to the nitty gritty of things.
I'm finding myself going back to having those conversations from the network that I've built, and, as we scale the company, I'm also thinking about how do we not be in this default startup autopilot kind of mode where you just do, do, do. But there needs to be the strategic elements that now come in, which I love. I'm huge on practicing what we preach. So being able to promote that psych safety from day one, experimenting with the async workflows, like using our own tools. How's the coach working? Every meeting we have with our advisory panel for me is really important where. We get that, oh, I like what Ven did here.
I like what this is happening, here's what I would change about this. And we're iterating as quick as possible. and for me, the big bet is better culture equals, better bottom line and that we know that. But it's also about being able to do this by humanizing work. and that is kind of my, my focus for the second half where going to [00:51:00] speak to more and more human, chief people, officers and CHROs to really help them understand what this tool does, but also executives, leaders who are just
tired of, doing a survey and then not acting on it.
but also seeing employee engagement, as something much bigger and, a leadership responsibility where leaders are coached to address this, head on.
Laura: And I guess it makes sense given your role of, collaborating with other people and culture folks to have somebody of your title in an organization. But it's pretty unique for a very early stage company to have a chief culture officer.
Anitta: when we were, so Mohi was pitching, Hoogly to me when I was a Chief people Officer. So it was really cool when I just said, Hey, look, I'm done, I'm done. I'm like completely burnt out. This is what I've been able to do. and he, asked if I would, jump on board and, shared what he was building. And for me, when that came about, it was, this isn't one of those, wouldn't be a money move or like a, usual move for [00:52:00] me. But I was so excited about the way they shared it about focused on making sure people felt seen and heard at
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: resonated with me. And I was like, this is something I wanna dedicate my time towards, something that is, a bigger mission than, than what I've done.
And, and so it really, it was completely different, but it was the connection. just in that 10 months that I've joined, being able to go win two awards, raise a million, like this is as exciting as some of my big, large tech efforts that I've done. and being able to be part of that product, piece.
in my first week, I, they had a go to market strategy and I changed it completely. And so it's that's why you kind of welcomed, and, and we compliment each other really well in terms of style. as I said, the team's really great. We have healthy debates on what it should be, and then they come back to me, what do you think
Laura: What do,
Anitta: And I'm like, well, I hate to break it to you guys, but chief people officers would want the following. but let's test it. Let's [00:53:00] try it, let's try something unique. and we still wanna build something that's innovative and unique and not what CPOs are used to. So
yeah.
It's a battle to work on.
But I love how it's taken shape and, and how, we really have this great respect for one another and everybody's experience like. to be there with the second time founder who's done it really successfully before, comes with a wealth of experience. I'm willing to, take that challenge and join in and, be a part of that journey. and it's been exciting already for me for the 10 months and knowing that the next half of the year is going to be, know, I say guns blazing. Like if we're, we're, we gotta do, we gotta go out there and do more. And, and that, I love that because I'm not tackling internal matters, but rather it's an external facing role.
Anitta: which I really love. Yeah.
Laura: And I also love what you've said throughout this conversation around conscious hiring and even though you've raised mill for the, I about to say for the fund, but that's my world, for the company, that, you know, [00:54:00] AI and workflows and automation will have a huge part to play in the product build here.
So I'd love to just get your opinion, you're seeing firsthand how AI is reshaping some of these orgs and whether CPOs are, you know, open and willing for this change or not. I'd love to hear your perspective on what's changing about how we build teams, lead people, and design culture in this world now shaped by ai.
Anitta: I spoke at a conference in Sydney and was a lot of like deer in headlights moments for HR leaders because they're like, oh wow, AI's here. I have no clue what we're doing with it kind of mindset. and I broke it down into three simple trends. One, the hyper-personalization of the employee experience, that's gonna completely change everything.
Everyone like you can do that now. You can offer something very personalized for each employee based on their needs. And that's with the power of ai. Second is AI agents being the new coworker. It's just not what it used to be. There's, more [00:55:00] of doing things more efficiently, but those who stay ahead with AI will always still have a job.
They know how to work with ai, but folks that are fearing it are gonna be the ones that they're not upskilling. They're like, oh my God, AI is gonna take over a job. Yeah. If you don't upskill, it could. Could come to that length. And so being mindful of how you're injecting AI agents into that, what that team makeup what task can be, where do we really need humans and where do we need, can use AI to be a lot more efficient? And the third is, I keep saying like we still need an organization that, is gonna feel and is a living organism and all of that. And so is, becomes even more important, being more human and HR being the culture architects that really lead the charge in injecting AI into the workplace.
Making sure that they're reevaluating the tools that they're using. It's not just AI summarization anymore. We're talking agents and it's picking up pretty quickly. and the modern HR leaders are [00:56:00] able to grasp this and understand it based off of if the company's also leading the charge in ai, but other companies and other leaders. they're just stuck in the outdated ways, they are struggling to move forward. and that's where products like Hoogly, we've just made it very simple. Plug and play we connect your HRIS, you can implement it tomorrow kind of approach. and that's how I've built it with the team because we know how busy HR professionals are. and there's this stigma against, like in the VC world where they're just like, oh, you're selling to hr. That's like, it's gonna go nowhere, kind of thing. But we're like, no, actually it, yes, we're selling to hr, but it's solving such a big problem that HR they just don't have the team, like if there was a small two person HR team, they'd be able to use this and, be able to make up for that, employee listening person that they don't have an extra, HRBP that they don't have. This is where it works really well for, organizations with anyone upward of 50 people and [00:57:00] above. This would be perfect to inject in and, that's the first way to, do it.
Finding products that, do things a lot more efficiently and being able to reshift the focus of people on the people elements.
we've also trained Venn to an empathetic coach. So there's a
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: effort that has gone into making sure that it, it's, it's really using our psychotherapist, our advisory team, that we have to really coach it and make sure that it's saying the right things and responding the right way. that's where we, we kind of come in to differentiate,
Laura: I've seen a lot of your superpowers shine through, but if you had to define them yourself, what would you say that your superpower strengths or your genius zones are as an operator?
Anitta: Ooh, tough one. I think superpowers wise is, looking at it from, for me as a systems thinker, so seeing what's also visible, but also the invisible things and being able to decipher through that. It's almost kind of, Yeah, really being observant of what's actually, taking [00:58:00] place and then taking that and, finding ways to make sure people feel safe, to really speak up and, and to really be authentic.
I think that's the biggest thing, being able to operate in that way. And then striking the balance, like really nailing it on the work-life balance element. there's not a day I skip paddle because of work. you know, being able to infuse, the real, life in general and integrate work into it really well. so for me, being able to see systems has allowed me to just be authentic about what's going on. Yeah. I think that's, for me the, biggest, piece is mindset shift around thinking it through, zooming out before the doing. .
I used to be a big doer. You, like, I would even ask you why there's a fire, what's going on. I would just do it, but now I've learned to be that person that can zoom out and, and really be able to see through it.
Laura: don't be afraid to ask heaps of questions up front,
Anitta: Yeah.
Laura: because to get the clarity from the team.
Anitta: like context. [00:59:00] speaking to all the right people. I've learned to not see anyone as a threat. if you're smarter than me, I will latch on very quickly and, you know, ask those questions. Learn, learn, learn. I think that's, one of the things that, in the midst of doing, you operate really fast and you can, you can kind of go and do your own thing and bulldoze, your way through. if people would just say this, give permission. And one of my friends just told me, she's like, just told me that my role is to observe for the next four weeks and get all the information and context and everything that that's my role for the next four weeks.
And I was like, oh, that's so amazing. like no expectation that you're gonna be doing, gathering data And you're, you're basically seeing the systems visible and
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: and you're gonna report back, and then you're gonna sit down and you're both gonna be like, this, this, this cool, go tackle that.
I think it's gonna be done in a really mindful way. And, it's a world class leader who has done this [01:00:00] before, multiple times at other large tech companies. And now they've come into this new org and they're like, actually, this is what I want you to solve for first. and let's do this by, I wanna see what you see from your eyes.
What have I missed? That takes a lot of humility to, maybe like, I have no
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: Like, this is like, we need to just hit pause, reassess, I want multiple viewpoints, and then we're gonna tackle the problem. I'm waiting to hear what her, observations were and, and how she's gonna take a look. it's cute 'cause she called me and said she, I need you to Wendy, me, Wendy Rhoades me, about all of this. And I, it just, it's fun, to be in that kind of space where people get it. That, that's your strength. to be a Wendy Rhoades, like, yeah, just
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: that psychologist and be there for employees, be there for leaders, be there for, yeah.
Middle managers, everything in between. I think this is, a really nice spot to operate in.
Laura: a listening tour is so powerful in so many ways across like learning a business or across learning you as your candidate market [01:01:00] fit in terms of finding a new role. But what I do find in early stage companies is there's like this sweet spot that we're all still trying to learn around.
You know, just that balance of like hiring at the right time before we're desperate so that then you can like provide that listening opportunity wherein that's hard.
Anitta: Yeah, I think it's really hard. I think just being especially in the startup world, like being very clear, like where are the gaps and everyone wants to build an empire. Everyone wants to scale their team. They need extra, extra, extra, but it's because they're trying to do so much.
Instead
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: narrowing the focus, say this is the priority for this, we need this. and we can come and say, we need one more engineer and one more data scientist. That's it. Like everybody's repeating drumming to the same beat. This is exactly what we need at this time. and we've made some hires where it's a bit early to make that kind of hire. But we do need it because we need to lay the foundation.
very early on, we identified those critical roles. and so when I said like, oh my gosh, this is a startup [01:02:00] about me coming in, it's needed. I love the way the founder explained it.
He is like, you're the subject matter expert for this entire thing. I'm the entrepreneur, founder, second time founder, investor relations, all of that. Like, he knows what it takes to build a successful business. He still needs that HR sidekick that's gonna build something that HR leaders need
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: client facing with HR leaders.
Do the HR speak, you know, company mascot. if someone asks what I do, I'm like, I'm the company mascot. I go out there and talk about I talk about like hr, AI trends. Like I, I get to really talk from a
Laura: Do you have an outfit?
Anitta: I don't, I, I do have a Hoogly jacket, which I, which I've been, we call it onboarded Hoogly jacket, which is outfit enough.
But, it's just being really intentional with who we have, what we need. a couple of people have put like, like for example, our product head is also great in design, so it's a product design slash role, and we're small enough that it works. But we'll eventually reach those limits where we do need to build.
really [01:03:00] early on mapping out what are the critical roles. What's missing in the team, and also thinking about what type of advisors you bring on, and the value add that they will be able to have.
Like being very clear, as an advisor, we'd love for you to do the following.
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: exactly what we need from you. and being really clear on that and that's all you need for, as a startup to be able to have, a handful of people that, get it and are willing to go the extra mile. And then, seeing like the need needs to match. Like if you're growing, really scaling really quickly and you know, okay, wow, we can already see that we've scaled so much, we're going to need to prepare to have those three extra people that we need. it's timing is everything. And now in this world we are seeing that you can onboard someone tomorrow. It's, that's how fast things are moving. So being mindful of exactly when and how someone is brought in, and what kind of value they create. And being very clear, like sometimes in the startup world you'll get someone who has experience in multiple areas and [01:04:00] then you say, actually no, we already have someone tackling that problem.
We would want your focus to be on this. And so that there isn't this overlap of, everyone trying to do everything. And, and I love that when there's those clear, clear, like there you can contribute, but there's your role focus is narrow enough, that your impact can be seen.
Laura: I feel like we've talked about lots of wins here. A very successful career. Learning the hard way on some balance in terms of, looking after oneself.
What would be the hardest moment of your career?
Anitta: the one hardest moment that Has stuck with me for, more than even after I've left, like from a long time was, winding down. TikTok India
I shared this earlier. We had scaled it up, built an incredible local team, who were deeply invested in the mission and taking TikTok further in India.
and then came the national band 'cause of geopolitical reasons. and my role was to help the team navigate that uncertainty, the, fear, the grief, and [01:05:00] making sure that we're still able to show up with dignity. That they were able to, even though everything was going on, there was a lot of trust in the leadership team that we were trying to figure this out, whether it's getting back in the market, whether it was trying to reenter through other strategic initiatives.
So I looked at all kinds of avenues, but for me, at that moment, there was no playbook for that moment. like that,
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: building, and, it makes me really proud to say that at least a thousand people were redeployed, into other roles. There was still opportunity to create a, a global operations, and still maintain it.
There was no local presence, but there was still, the team was able to work on global things. But
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: me down as a leader and it helped me rebuild, to that deeper sense of empathy and humility. And so I remember You know, having exhausted that eight months of having the entire team on payroll and then having to make that tough call and how the leaders showed up and, you know, just like helping people, being able to extend, giving [01:06:00] people time, a runway to find something else.
There were just a lot of moments that, you could see it, truly was an experience where I was working with world class leaders. I was able to, really get the attention of one senior executive, who was one of the co-founders at ance, and became the CEO overnight as well one day and Okay, my experience at TikTok was from start to finish was always go, go, go and, there were a lot of things from addressing leadership challenges to building and scaling to then geopolitical aspects.
but every step of the way there was a really great, strong team. That kind of thing. And for me, that one incident it redefined who I was, but also other people saw me as a people first leader and, being able to see. Then I had people who came on to work with me on other things even after I left.
I've kept in touch. There's always like, they're always referring me, like calling me to say, Hey, we have a CPO gig opening up. I thought of you. [01:07:00] I love that there is that continu. and I still send out Christmas and New Year notes to some of the leaders that, that I worked with. 'cause it's just a relationship that we form when you're in the trenches like that deep. I wouldn't have left if I didn't, you know, if I wasn't burnt out, I would've kept going. But it was just one of those moments where my body just said, I can't, like, I can't function any longer. So that was the end of that, but it, it was the best moment of my career to work in that
Laura: Oh
Anitta: of environment and scale.
Laura: the SWAT team moment. thank you so much for sharing. That's really powerful. And that probably leads me into my next question around we have a wild future ahead of us for, this ecosystem and for tech operators. What do you think's ahead and what do you think us as operators can adapt to more of right now to set us up for success?
Anitta: we're finally seeing APAC go into that maturity arc. and we've moved away from kind of the [01:08:00] copycat to category defining, we're starting to build from be that forefront to look at and there's a bit of a deeper understanding. now it, it's not about scale anymore, which I think many of the other regions have been all about scale. we're
Laura: Mm-hmm.
Anitta: cultural nuance regulation and building trust, whether it's with the users. And so that next wave of founders, like they are starting to navigate, hyper-local complexity while thinking about how, they operate globally.
I. and there's a lot of appetite to just get started and try it out.
there's a little bit more with operators, they're kind of, there's a bit of rawness to it where they can admit, Hey, we haven't gotten it right. what's working, what's not? And there's a lot of support to fix in real time. since I've joined Hoggle and been more in the startup space, there's been startup meetups, People, leaders, and there's a lot of these communities popping up in ANZ that, you can see as having a lot of value. and like everyone I spoke to has gone to Sunrise last week, which [01:09:00] was like, also I'm like, oh my God. but there is a lot of, peer kind of mentorship, happening. And I also dedicate my time to mentor startups as well.
And so a call later today, doing that. and so it's just really finding that can take these, moments and move forward. But you're seeing a nice shift where there's a lot of peer comradery to it, It is not all, we can't share where you're competing against us kind of moments.
It's, it's really,
Laura: Yeah.
Anitta: open to that, which, which I really love. I personally, you know, I'm Canadian, have been in Asia for now Yeah. Seven years now. And it's just the region I wanna operate in. And I, I love everything about APAC there's just a, raw humanist to the entire region, different cultures, different aspects. and I love it. ANZ is always on its own little, piece, but I, I do see everything that, that's been able to scale in this part of the world.
Laura: Awesome. So we're coming to the end of the podcast. we are gonna do a quick fire round, [01:10:00] And just a little shout out to Harry Uffindell who inspired this piece of the podcast. I love bringing to life new ideas that operators are keen for me to explore.
So, are you ready?
Anitta: I'm ready.
Laura: Best tech stack for operators.
Anitta: Ooh Hoogly
Reimagine employee engagement notion and slack with healthy boundaries
Laura: ,
Laura: Advice
you give execs about managing burnout.
Anitta: your calendar reflects your values, so audit it weekly.
Laura: A book framework or tool you swear by.
Anitta: the The Monk Who Sold his Ferrari by Robin Sharma. I read it back then, but reading it now again is just, yeah, that's exactly where I'm at. and I feel like that's a basic book for every leader.
Laura: I just did that shocked face. 'cause it is such a good book. A leader you admire
Anitta: Hamza Khan I mentioned him earlier, his approach to leadership and his focus on, wellbeing in the workplace has been revolutionary.
Laura: your walk-on song. [01:11:00] If you entered an office like an athlete.
Anitta: Ooh. The
last song someone played was the, intro to Gangsters Paradise, which I thought was funny, but my go-to if I had a choice would be Girl On Fire by Alicia Keys.
Laura: So good. I love that you're like, actually this has already happened and
Anitta: pretty ha. Like I just went on. I'm like, whoa, this is major hype. Like, I can't live up to gangsters paradise. Like this is huge. and it
Laura: Oh,
Anitta: me laugh instantly as I walked up stage and everyone's like, oh my God, this is so you, that's so badass. but if I had the choice, it w it would definitely be girl on fire.
It's a lot more motivating and, yeah.
Laura: so good. One piece of advice you'd love to pass on.
Anitta: prioritize your breath. sleep and boundaries for clarity. when your body's in sync, your mind follows,
Laura: Beautiful. Best advice for mid-level operators.
Anitta: Ooh, stop
waiting for permission. just influence. It doesn't come with the title. It comes from all the momentum and impact that you have. So, remembering that.[01:12:00]
Laura: And who should I have on the pod next?
Anitta: I thought
about this. the co-founders of Moom Health, Mili And Maya Kale, they're these two sisters who have founded, women's health supplements, in apac, and I think they would be, yeah. Very cool. to bring on your podcast.
Laura: Anita, I just wanna say thank you so much for showing up today with so many nuggets of wisdom and your vulnerability. this is the perfect place to end the podcast. Where can people connect with you after this?
Anitta: Yeah, people can connect with me on LinkedIn, just my first name and last name yeah, connect. I'd love to share about culture, leadership, and also speak about Hoogly AI and tech, everything on that notion.