I'm connecting with George Hatzis, a fractional product designer for early-stage startup teams. From his early curiosity about design and product at Ignition to redesigning a personal loan application admin at Wisr and building and scaling a multi-brand design system for healthcare products at Eucalyptus, he's no stranger to the twists and turns of startups and scale-ups. In this episode, we cover practical design and MVP design systems—what they are and how to apply them in fast-moving, scrappy environments; taking the independent product design route and his “Mary Poppins-style” approach to fractional work; his journey (so far) building a migration tech product alongside Niamh and Damian at Matilda; leading design teams and making a conscious transition from an individual contributor to a manager; AI as a “companion piece” for designers; the right time for startups to bring in their first product designer; and advice for product designers pitching themselves to early-stage startups. Plus, slowing everything down for life's simple moments, watching 100 movies a year (and reviewing them on Letterboxd), and the magic of acknowledging trade-offs.
I'm connecting with George Hatzis, a fractional product designer for early-stage startup teams. From his early curiosity about design and product at Ignition to redesigning a personal loan application admin at Wisr and building and scaling a multi-brand design system for healthcare products at Eucalyptus, he's no stranger to the twists and turns of startups and scale-ups. In this episode, we cover practical design and MVP design systems—what they are and how to apply them in fast-moving, scrappy environments; taking the independent product design route and his “Mary Poppins-style” approach to fractional work; his journey (so far) building a migration tech product alongside Niamh and Damian at Matilda; leading design teams and making a conscious transition from an individual contributor to a manager; AI as a “companion piece” for designers; the right time for startups to bring in their first product designer; and advice for product designers pitching themselves to early-stage startups. Plus, slowing everything down for life's simple moments, watching 100 movies a year (and reviewing them on Letterboxd), and the magic of acknowledging trade-offs.
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Connecting with George Hatzis, a Fractional Product Designer for early-stage startups, including the newly launched Matilda Migration:
Laura: George welcome to the podcast
George: Thank you very much
Laura: let's start by sharing who is George outside of being an operator
George: I grew up in Prestons which is Southwest Sydney in new south Wales about 30 40 minutes from the city in my early twenties moved to Rozelle I was there for about six or seven years And just recently I moved to Melbourne With my partner and my lovely cat So we're living in a townhouse in Brunswick east it's lovely quiet cozy everything we've wanted and imagined I watch a lot of movies I'm [00:01:00] on Letterboxd My username is hatzis I have to do the username drop I try to watch about a hundred movies a year I'm up to 90 as of the day we're recording this So we're doing well I tried to do a mix of re-watches comfort watches and then trying to watch the newest latest either blockbuster Indy but uh yeah I do love movies and may make some references or quotes throughout who knows
Laura: What's your top three movies of the moment
George: Off the top of my head arrival sci fi movie with Amy Adams The Emperor's New Groove I think it's just one of the funniest movies it's fantastic and Palm Springs that's on prime It's like a time travel comedy came out a few years ago Very funny very heartfelt very lovely
Laura: I love it Actually when I was doing your call a friend research Niamh mentioned that she'd been snooping at your Letterboxd
George: it is the highest honor I get when someone is like oh like I was looking at your Letterboxd And like I watched this movie cause I saw [00:02:00] your review for it It's the biggest kick I love it
Laura: Okay well I'll be linking to that in the show notes and we'll all be movie wizards is there anyone in your journey who shaped who you are today
George: I'll probably start off by going back to how I ended up in my first startup role at practice ignition which is now known as Ignition cause there's someone there that has been quite meaningful To play it back before the role I at uni was studying a bachelor of commerce with a major in marketing I think I picked marketing purely because there was an opportunity to do visuals but it was like a presentation or a slide deck of some sort so the telltale signs were already there along the way of leaning into design after my degree I knew by then that I wanted something marketing and design like a hybrid Of the two And practice ignition The co-founder guy Pearson He reached out to me on AngelList back when they were more focused on hiring and posting jobs And he was [00:03:00] like Hey we went to the same uni Macquarie university let's have a chat And so I spoke with them had a coffee with him And very naively and immaturely I walked out of the chat thinking this is an accounting product This is so boring Why do I want to do something with accountants which is a very silly thought in hindsight I then had a chat with Dane Thomas the other co-founder who's still there as chief product officer And that was really a turning moment cause we just clicked and he gave me that perspective immediately of how fascinating and complex the product is that they're working on And just how much opportunity there was in this place for me to contribute I joined as a marketing specialist But then very quickly started to put my hand up for design-related tasks I asked could I redesign the website I think it could use a touch up and they were like sure Go for it As long as you do your marketing tasks like your responsibilities you can go for it And [00:04:00] then I was asking okay I've been designing the website who's going to build it The engineers are all on the product And rightfully so and they were like if you want to learn how to code and build it go for it So I started learning how to code at that time I then started transition into really sitting under Dane's wing really seeing how he conducted himself as the head of products managing the engineers shaping and giving direction to the products I just learned so much from that experience I think I really understood from the way he conducted himself how to be a very firm but fair leader knowing how to get the best out of people how to make sure they're thriving But also being the first person that if someone wasn't at their best or was struggling that he would offer A heartfelt conversation a hug whatever kind of support you needed that really shaped For me oh this is what it's like to be a leader This is what it's like to be a person in [00:05:00] a company where there was only about 30 people So it was A tight-knit cohort of people A lot of people that have been there for five to six years already and I think The biggest sign of what a fantastic person and leader he is is Of that 30 I'd say quite a majority of that cohort is still there today where the company is six or seven years later across five six different countries probably quadrupled in size at this point that to me is so telling to his character of what I got to witness firsthand Thanks Dane
Laura: Yeah thanks Dane was it Dane that helped you make that transition from marketing to product design
George: I really think I just had so much curiosity for design and product and he just enabled that he offered me that journey to Go and explore be curious I naturally was like do we have a design system What is a design system that sounds [00:06:00] fun I started to really be attracted to the idea of Adding structure and Organization to the process of what we build it was about a year in when we had an all hands and they were talking about roles they were hiring it was in the garage of a house in Redfern which was our office oh sorry Chippendale actually And they said we're going to be hiring a product designer And five minutes after that meeting I pulled Dane aside and was like I want that job I'd like to transition into that role He was so excited He was so immediately Empowering of like yes let's do this This is great so he definitely Opened the door for me and let me have my curiosities and run wild that made the transition not only smooth but really exciting rather than oh am I taking a risk here He made it Fun And that was so important at the time
Laura: He sounds like an incredible leader and I'm excited to explore from then until now and what those [00:07:00] traits are that you've kept from that journey you've got an impressive portfolio of startups under your belt as a product designer we've got Ignition to Mizko Media to Wildcard to Wiser to Eucalyptus And now you are fractional for early stage companies Throughout this journey what standout projects or moments shaped your career as a product designer
George: it's funny because talking about standout projects or moments I think wildcard stands out simply because the team that I was a part of stands out to me we were No more than six or seven people building a FinTech product Wildcard essentially The tagline was like make your pay last So again somewhat familiar concept across a few banking apps today but back then our core focus was targeting the millennial or gen Z individual who would get their pay They'd go and buy those pair of shoes go out for drinks all that stuff Then in the last week of their pay cycle they have no money [00:08:00] And they're just not really taking care of their finances we had a very simple function where money would go into a pay account and slowly trickle into a spending account 1 cent at a time And the idea was you let that accumulate And so that spend account money is guilt-free to spend working on that was a standout moment because we had myself as a product designer two or three engineers a superstar marketer customer support growth person we were just a small tight-knit team that was doing Something really meaningful but I felt really proud and we were doing a really great job at it compared to at the time Neo banks were more of a Trend and frenzy at that point there were other companies with 200 300 staff a hundred million dollars in funding And it was nice to be on the side of the little team that could in a way where we didn't have buckets of money but we just had a really good mindset a really good approach and pace that [00:09:00] Was a really important time where I realized like being in that environment is where I do thrive So that's one standout moment
Laura: it sounds like you really love and flourish within an early stage environment so talk to me about that leap from Wiser to Eucalyptus a significantly larger company
George: I can actually say from Wildcard to Wisr as a first step before that Ignition was 20 to 30 people Mizko Media was about four to five at its largest as an agency wildcard seven to eight Wisr was about 110 So for me this felt like I was at a corporation It was so many people so many names even the simple fact that When they said I was joining that week there was six other people joining the team that week That I'd be part of an onboarding cohort I was like wow Six whole people at the same time this team is scaling fast so that was really eyeopening It was also the first time I'd really been on a design team Where there was a [00:10:00] head of design and collaborating with other designers that in itself is such an experience And then going from Wisr to Eucalyptus was fascinating because I think I joined Eucalyptus just on the precipice of the high growth stage I joined And about a week later they announced we're going to hire a lot of people strap in and suddenly I'd say there was that period of five people joining every two weeks And there's just new name after new name that was quite an experience to adjust to particularly because you do have a lot of people Onboarding and scaling up as you're trying to build something at the same time You had less and less people like those Domain holders of two to three years and more everyone Only two to three months in figuring out what's going on but it made it very exciting
Laura: what's coming to mind is that your role as a product designer during that period of fast growth would have been even more important but just for those listening who maybe aren't [00:11:00] familiar with the difference between a product designer and a product manager Can you just help demystify that slightly before we then dive into Eucalyptus
George: a product manager and product designer are very closely connected I see them as my partner in crime when I am joining a squad or a team and I've got my PM it's like we are going to work very closely together So that dynamic is so crucial But nonetheless in terms of individual responsibilities the simple version is product manager says no to a lot of people and the product designer brings the idea to life but to of course elaborate that a product manager is really strict in defining the timelines and the scope of work They are also the resource gatherer I would say If we need information from other stakeholders whether it's legal operations finance the customer itself the user itself They drive that responsibility of gathering all the information [00:12:00] and they basically want to show the business that They want to reduce the amount of risk they're taking in this bet of what we're about to build the business will likely go to the PM or the head of product or the founders themselves depending on the size of the company we'll say Hey we want to introduce this thing to our product The PM will lead the charge ongoing How much time do we need for that What kind of resources how do we validate this idea How do we de-risk as much as possible The product designer is tied into that pretty early on to give Context and perspective On Bringing that to life what does this look like as a deliverable how much time would you need How complex is this I'll also throw in the lead engineer in there because typically they'll act as that triad where then the engineer gives the perspective similar to product designer but from a code and engineering perspective it's like how long would this take to build how many engineers do we need Is this an insane [00:13:00] idea that we're about to take on Or can we do this with the time that we have I think those three working together as a collective is very common and for me I'd say the key difference team the product manager and product designer
Laura: Yeah that's really helpful Thank you in terms of the fast growth at Eucalyptus how did your approach to product design evolve as these companies scaled obviously you're very focused on bringing the product to life but there's got to be a lot of internal dynamics that are wrapped around that too
George: with Eucalyptus which I started to do more at Wisr because we did have a team of designers is I started to see the benefit of defining what high quality scrappiness is which in a way I'd say it's like practical design It's basically acknowledging we don't need to build every single pixel from scratch but we also don't need to do the bare minimum To the point where the quality affects the experience negatively So setting up Processes and practices that make it easier for a [00:14:00] designer to jump on board Make it so that someone can hit the ground running about a month in rather than six months in that was so crucial at that period making sure that we had the right tactics and frameworks set up For designers to come in where at the time that I joined it was still early enough that there wasn't really a lot of it was relying on either notion docs buried within notion docs or slack conversations from five months ago you had to find but also just talking to people And I think that's also okay to embrace And maybe when we answer those questions maybe then we document it somewhere for the next person it's always a learning phase so that with every hire in the future it gets easier and easier to onboard them I think maybe one other thing we can mention is management as a product designer I can briefly touch on The difference on going from like an IC to a manager because I do find that to be an interesting topic for designers To go through [00:15:00]
Laura: Perfect Let's get stuck in
George: There's something really interesting there of Transitioning your mindset as a designer where Your success as an IC is the success of your work But as a manager your success is the success of your team and those are two very different roles to play so I think that's a small significant transition than people can expect at times especially if you as it commonly is in a startup or a scale-up you are an IC slash manager So you're an IC in a squad but you're also managing two designers on the side even saying on the side that is such a discredit to the amount of value time and responsibility That goes into managing other people I always think when designers are considering making that jump there's a lot of research and discussions for them to have to understand It really is a different type of persona that you need to take on and that your relationships Do change with the designers that you're managing since there is a new dynamic to it [00:16:00] all I went through that process at EUC where I was a senior product designer with a team of designers And then I went to a lead product designer managing the designers and suddenly That dynamic really changed my responsibility and ownership over how we operate and holding people accountable became a much bigger factor In my day to day rather than Being in Figma designing along working with my PM and engineers there's something there for people to consider when they're making that transition of Am I ready to be a different kind of person at work And if you are going to be an IC and manager are you ready to be able to transition between those two roles Because it can be very tricky to go from Doing a performance review with your direct report to a roadmap meeting straight after planning out the next three months that mindset shift can get quite taxing if you're not comfortable with it
Laura: on that topic what leadership [00:17:00] style or tactics really served you well given that you had those relationships prior to being the lead
George: It's not really a style but I definitely failed a lot as a leader I felt like I learnt so much through realizing oh I should have approached this differently it was very much the standard Stuff of being a bit too fair and nice as a leader wanting to be their friend and their manager and realizing not that you're going to be their enemy or not their friend but that the relationship is different You are their manager And you're not going to be best friends with them and that's okay or getting comfortable of being like oh I need to give these opportunities to my direct reports for them to prove themselves so they can grow and develop as designers I need to switch off my IC hat And turn on my manager hat And give away work rather than trying to fill up my days and be exhausted from doing too much iC work whilst somehow trying to manage A style That I would try is just being [00:18:00] very early on with feedback and Not hiding from positive feedback as well I think it can be easy to lean into Hey this could be better or you could do this or you forgot that but remembering to empower them at the right times as well Just those small reminders of positivity So it's not all constructive probably the other last style or approach is making the performance review As little surprising as possible meeting them there going we know what most of this is going to be rather than shocking them because either way it's Not great If you shock them with praise that's a shame because then that means they hadn't heard that up until this performance review And if you shock them with criticism then You and your report are on a different wavelength And that means you're shocking them with Criticism In a bad way They're like oh wow I didn't realize I was doing this poorly And that's not great either just general learnings and approaches I had along the way but definitely a lot of failure in a really [00:19:00] beneficial way for me
Laura: the key themes I'm hearing there from you is building that culture of feedback always it's an always on activity positive and constructive And then also that self awareness piece that you know you can make mistakes and you can be vulnerable with your teammates and recognize that you could have approached something differently You mentioned something about a term called practical design That's new to me So I'd love to just unpack that slightly What does that mean to you and how do you apply it in a fast moving scrappy startup environment
George: an example of employing it as a tactic is acknowledging trade-offs for example So often when things get a bit chaotic and you're trying to reach a deadline For a piece of work there's edge cases that pop up or there's a reason to pivot and suddenly your workload has doubled but the same deadline is still looming In those situations Being practical is calling out the [00:20:00] trade-offs rather than saying let's do all of it for example if there's a plan a and there's a plan B it's calling out to the stakeholder that we can do plan B but we'll lose the ability to do plan a say your product is a messaging app for a community You could say sure we can last minute adding the functionality for users to react to messages with emojis and a justification is it will help with community engagement the trade-off is we won't have time to do bookmarking messages to save for later so which one do we think has the bigger priority that either forces The product manager or stakeholders who are making this push to either consider which one is more valuable Or to change the deadline which that can be the hardest decision to make because that Affects everything else It pushes everything further the trade-off at least gets them to realize okay what is more important that goes back to being practical for me because being [00:21:00] practical is Realizing not everything has to go into this solution It's what are the most important things And then how can we iterate and build on top of it later on I'd also just add with practical design It's about being purposeful and honest about your design decisions and efforts It's not black and white where everything has to be super scrappy and lean But like I said before it doesn't all need to be pixel perfect Either Being practical is knowing when to go slow and knowing when to go fast and then pulling that lever left or right As you need
Laura: which is probably a nice segway you started as a fractional product designer at the beginning of the year and you're working with multiple early stage startups now in your view when is the right time for startups to bring in their first designer and what are the pros and cons for I guess contracting independents versus hiring full time
George: I think it's very common for the decision to [00:22:00] hire a designer to fall into one of two ways the first is a startup brings on a designer full time where they then quickly realize they don't have enough work for this product designer So they asked them to pick up other admin tasks like designing ads social media some marketing Collateral this isn't a bad thing at all if you as a designer want to do all those things In fact I think it's great as you get exposed to other areas of the business And I think that widens your Palette of understanding design and how it affects other things in other formats But I do see how some designers may not want all that other type of work So they're in this role Full-time and they're not even really doing product design the whole time The second way is the company basically waits until they have enough design debt That they need to hire someone and the floor I think in that is the first six months of that hire is usually trying to reverse the damage that's already done where they're Doing a design [00:23:00] system they're providing guidelines And they need to revamp and refine What's already there rather than coming in earlier on to provide that I think the right time to contract an independent can be that earliest stage six months before that person comes into fixed design debt where there's very little design debt you bring in someone on a fractional role to help set up a design system give clear product direction Build an MVP that is scalable and easy to implement for engineers And then they jump off I don't know how this stuck with me but I use this phrase of being a Mary Poppins-type hire where I kind of float on in wave my wand around The house is spotless and wonderful The kids are happy and singing And then I go on to my next place my job here is done and that's a happy situation for everybody I'm not Locked into the situation where the company is like we need to find this person work But I'm also not coming in at a stage where the [00:24:00] mess is so messy I think the independent role and fractional role helps For an early stage company where the definitions and rules and constraints are being drawn up And then later Once they're really beginning to scale I think the full-time hire makes more sense
Laura: tell us about Matilda What stood out to you about partnering with Niamh Mooney and Damian Png to build a migration tech startup I'm also very excited about this because they are founders we work for in the Co Ventures portfolio
George: Matilda is a modern migration agency that its main aim is to take away the stress of a visa application the application process can be expensive confusing and quite lengthy And what we're aiming to do is provide them not only a dedicated migration agent to work with them along every step of the way but for our team to do the heavy lifting for the application [00:25:00] So they spend a lot less time getting their affairs in order and sourcing things And also just having a lot more transparency over the process We simply think there's so much opportunity for innovation in that world And we're very lucky to be offering a service for people that are going through such a critical moment in their lives So partly of course the problem being solved was very attractive But Niamh and Damien themselves are just such brilliant founders in How they empower you as a contributor to do your best work they are both incredibly intelligent savvy very practical thinkers But they also are happy to go Yeah we're not designers and George this is exactly why we brought you in to do your part and make this impact And we will proudly lean on your advice and opinion with anything That Derives from a product problem or design problem I feel incredibly empowered to work with them [00:26:00] Day-to-day they are very supportive and guiding on how I want to approach the problems and also I think they just have Such a high standard for Doing the right thing by the users
Laura: A really exciting project for you building the product from day one What's that journey been like so far What's been your favorite part What challenges have you come across
George: I love designing admins I know lots of product designers WILL talk about really fun exciting lots of animations and flare and apps And I do love those as I love designing mobile apps but for me Admin experiences are so fascinating because there's so many moving pieces of content and figuring out the right way to structure it so that you have someone's attention looking at the right kind of data at the right time I just think that's so difficult to figure out which just means when you do figure it out It's awesome it's a great feeling that's been exactly the situation for this product because naturally with a visa application that is about [00:27:00] 60 70 pieces of information that they need to fill in And there's a right time and place for them to fill it in for a partner visa For example you need witness statements so you need to involve other stakeholders and they have a responsibility to provide information so far it's been really fascinating and difficult but in a really rewarding way for building the product we've actually gone quite no code so far using third-party form builders and leveraging notion actually as a foundation to have the task lists that we will ask people to complete to be able to enter their visa application on their behalf as a migration agent can it's really been more of a focus on trying to utilize and leverage no code tools which has definitely taken me back to more of the startup jobs earlier in my career which has been really fun It's somewhat more of a Swiss army knife role Here's a gap Where's the puzzle piece that's going to fit it's been really fun being in that stage with Matilda [00:28:00] especially doing that with Niamh and Damian cause It's like we're all in this together type thing like huddling around going what do we do We're going to figure it out
Laura: proper ground floor building vibes And Niamh mentioned that you thrive putting structure and process around chaos I feel like some of her context was perhaps around people leadership and how you interact with founders what key tactics or principles have been most effective How do these help you manage up down and sideways
George: It's a very funny compliment to hear I hear you love being organized and you're like thank you It is a good compliment It's just a funny one It's like oh you're so structured and like oh that sounds boring but thank you But It comes from a good place Uh don't worry Niamh I appreciate it I think asking a million questions and just maintaining curiosity in every conversation especially as a designer other people will always have ideas and they'll always bring those ideas to you it's not wasteful to [00:29:00] entertain them It's important to gather it all And then be the decision maker but that decision Is normally best made when you have the diverse perspectives of those around you amongst everything going on in your own head I think the trade-offs aspect I mentioned earlier is also a really important tactic as a leader again just calling out like if we do this we're not going to be able to do that So it really forces people to make A more mindful decision I think That is a really effective way To manage stakeholders that are coming up to you be like Hey what about this What about this What about this and on that note I think the last thing is also Tying into all that is exercising priority So something is always more important than something which is always more important than something But for others it can often be that everything is of the same importance but it's never true It's never ever true There's always something more important I Always try to focus on this or that in terms of order we can do everything but we need to [00:30:00] do it one step at a time What steps does that need to be all three of those things really are just working at slowing The stakeholders down and getting them to think more purposefully and mindfully about what they want Why do they want it And when do they really need it that's so effective with founders in particular because They can just get so excited about an idea or an opportunity it's very fair to but You have a long-term goal you have a longterm path that you're embarking on and as a product designer or someone in product I feel like it's your responsibility to hold them accountable to that long-term journey
Laura: given that you're managing founders so closely what if they're conflicting themselves and you're almost like the mediator
George: do you mean there's two founders that are disagreeing with each other Yeah Interesting that definitely has happened I mean firstly it's good you talk to both of them individually and get their perspective because if everyone's in the same room it can [00:31:00] become more of Rather than here's my idea It's my idea is better than theirs And that's not really the point that's not as constructive You just want to hear cool Why do you want to approach it in this way And then it's so important to jump on a call with the team or jump in a meeting room and have an in-person conversation because as a mediator something that I think sometimes people can miss is you've really got to follow the energy and vibe of the room how confrontational is this How emotional is this managing that very carefully of knowing am I going to strike a nerve here or is this a very healthy open conversation So it's really assessing the relationship between those two founders in that moment Are they Really clashing Or are they being really respectful And they're just like I'm happy to hear you out I just feel really strongly about this and Following that vibe initially I think then it's taking both perspectives Taking it away having time to think about it And then giving [00:32:00] your perspective With the frame of product at the forefront I wouldn't necessarily give my opinion Strongly if it was something business related like say for instance with Matilda if Niamh and Damian was strongly disagreeing on something that was more of a operational decision or strategic point of view for the business I could give my 2 cents but I would also confidently downplay my own contribution because I'm like look this is not my area of expertise and I'd also flag who is going to be running point on this So if it's Niamh's responsibility In this area that is conflicting I would argue it's somewhat more fair for Niamh to be Driving and making this call because she is the one that will stick with this answer but if it is from a product point of view a design point of view that's where I definitely get more Confident like Hey this is my 2 cents and here's why I'll draw up an artifact on Figjam I'll lay [00:33:00] it all out I think that can be a difference maker in those types of situations where the confrontation is just becoming more about arguing the point and it's like hang on Let's actually focus more on the work itself and what the best solution is for the work It really does depend on each founder I'm very lucky that I've worked with really great founders who Are very good at Going back to what does the user need and want we had to do that at eucalyptus quite a fair bit Even myself I hold myself accountable to that where designing an app for Juniper The demographic is women aged From say like 30 to 50 and the platform is like a weight loss product mobile app I can't really be going well This is what I would want in the app I'm not the user that's the last point I would draw them back to is hang on to help decide this What do we think is better for the user based on these two decisions
Laura: that's a really helpful North Star so we've spoken a lot today about lots [00:34:00] of different disciplines within your field if you really had to hone it down what would be your Most valuable skills that sets you apart as an operator
George: I'll talk about what I love to do the most that I know also tends to be valuable to other folks I work with I love Translating ideas from people's heads I love hearing someone know exactly the problem they want to solve Me Having that Eureka moment of just understanding What it is and how to solve it and then bringing that to life in this tangible deliverable of a design of a product I've had a few times in my career where I've had let's say like a 30 minute chat I can go away tinker with UI and come back and show something And I see their face light up and that's just an awesome moment for both of us I'm very lucky and grateful that I have a brain that can think like that especially with founders who they have that idea and that ambition and drive to bring it to life but they just don't know [00:35:00] how it looks I love being that right-hand man it's such a silly analogy but As a way to position myself to the founder say I don't want to be king or queen on the throne I want to be the Guard standing next to you That when you just need something done you whisper in my ear and I will go sort it out I just want to go Build I was going to say execute but in that context that doesn't That's getting a
Laura: You've changed character there
George: Yeah Yeah It's like hang on What does he do being that person that's just working building delivering getting the job done I don't need to be sitting like at the table at the very front I just want to deliver and build and get that direction fed to me and bring this to life I think another skill that I've really worked at honing his speed speed of delivery but choosing when to exercise that speed I think has been even more valuable I can Mock up UI and make changes in Figma super fast like in a meeting [00:36:00] live when I'm getting feedback just go oh is this what you meant And I'm like wow like you did that in seconds that's super handy But I think the other half is having a good gut feeling on when you need to stop and ask more questions or challenge the core of what we're doing I can go fast but it's choosing when to go fast I think is the greater skill that I've really tried to work on in the last few years
Laura: Yeah I love that do you have any advice for product designers pitching themselves to early stage startups
George: Something I always pass on is it's so important to be very clear about what you do and don't do I do think this comes more present as you become more senior in your career and you've had more exposure to different aspects of design The second one would be that a warm intro goes much further than a cold one and I think that's because the impact of the person who is choosing to back you really speaks levels along with the recommendation itself And lastly it's also about being strategic about where you go to [00:37:00] work for a job This can be maybe a bit more later on when you're mid to senior where being strategic means What kind of people work in this place What kind of environment Does it cater to it wasn't the primary part but a notable part I considered when joining a place like eucalyptus was going in I knew there were a lot of incredibly talented people there that would likely go on to start their own businesses I mean it's already proving itself tenfold but the connections I've made there have already led me to some incredible projects this year alone so I think being picky about where you work and what individuals you surround yourself with really can have an impact on going from pitching yourselves To being pitched to or being contacted just simply because someone knows someone who knows someone who needs a product
Laura: so we're going to look to the future what do you believe the key trends are that are shaping the future of tech operators
George: I think you obviously have to talk about AI here I don't know how you [00:38:00] don't I don't see myself as someone like in the depths of the space but I will say I read this in an op-ed a designer posted early this year when Figma released their AI features part of the quote was something like AI should be my production designer my assistant my helper but it should never be my creative director I strongly agree with that as where AI is more a collaborator on the sidelines and not this idea that it needs to be this force of nature that will inevitably swallow up the industry of design as a whole I Hope and liken to think that the key trend is that AI is more of a companion piece to our work because I strongly believe the value in that
Laura: And then slightly more in your world what emerging design trends should startups be paying attention to
George: this speaks to more like what I'm doing now is like a fractional product designer it makes it more possible to do this is stressing the value of a lean design system for a [00:39:00] startup I think when you hear design systems a lot of people Think about corporations that have a team of 200 designers that have a system where everything is laid out and ruled and it's super rigid and locked in But There's an MVP design system that provides so much value for a startup to be Consistent and thoughtful from day one It makes the business stronger at scaling and also testing things quicker and also at a decent enough quality The frustrating thing I've encountered is when a startup is testing something And the test fails and the blame is put on something Other than what was obvious for me which is the experience just wasn't good enough you Can be scrappy But only to a certain degree It's paying attention to more of the finer details just enough to ensure that The scrappiness is effective and efficient but isn't detrimental to your ability to test and iterate and move forward
Laura: what tactics [00:40:00] frameworks and people in the industry have been your north stars
George: I'm not the type that has the frameworks in my locker I won't talk about the double diamond process Anything like that but I certainly have people and principles and like starting with people I think James Nau is a wonderful call out I think he's currently head of product at Airtasker and I've seen him speak a few times at meetups and conferences but I've also had the pleasure to informally chat with him He is the north star of a design leader where he is so Considerate patient relaxed but you can tell that when it comes to defending his people defending his craft He would be so firm and confident in delivering what's right for the business I've witnessed a lot of people and including myself just have so much respect for the way he conducts himself as a manager He's also incredibly Selfless and self-aware of knowing his limitations as a leader but still [00:41:00] striving to improve in those limitations And I love that mentality It's like accept your faults And then work on them You're not going to be perfect another example for me is Olivia king I've had the privilege of knowing Liv for quite a few years now it's funny we met during wildcard cause she designed the website while I was working on the product And then later she joined eucalyptus and I got to work with her briefly there and I really admire her given the projects that she's worked on and her craft is at such a high standard I think she's just the quintessential like loves design and makes beautiful work That's very human and friendly and she actually fun fact did the brand for Matilda which is why it's so wonderful It was great to work on that with her
Laura: full circle moment for you all
George: Full circle So for me Liv is the dream where we could one day have an agency where she does brand I do products [00:42:00] we're the best of both worlds just delivering these great Experiences together I strongly admire her as both a friend and designer
Laura: if you had to call out an operator in Australia or New Zealand who's doing incredible things or at the top of their game who would they be
George: I do have two people in mind I think the first one's Kayla Medica she's a product marketer Who's had a somewhat similar journey to me with a foray like across many startups But is now operating in fractional roles with different companies but also writing her own content She's just so Thoughtful in an independent innovative way with what she contributes to the Australian startup community like what she writes up and the video content she produces It's so uniquely her And I think that's a wonderful contribution she's so clearly not trying to Ride the wave of what other people doing She's carving out her own path and she's experimenting And trying different avenues of [00:43:00] Content in a way that just livens up the community and the ecosystem and I also think it's her transparency that she brings to the table in terms of what she's working on salary commitment to projects it yeah it all just raises the quality of the words that she shares Probably another person is His name's Nick Hough He's my partner's boss she worked with him when they were a Australian startup about a few years ago And then they got acquired by a us company why I think he's such a fantastic operator is he was the co-founder of that startup and he happened to also be an Olympian he went to the Olympics the 110 hurdles he was at Tokyo but Nonetheless He was able To run a business with his co-founder And in this acquisition he has found himself working up through the food chain where their team was one part of the product And now he is like director of product or something like that at [00:44:00] this us company where he has such a core Ownership and responsibility if you chat with him he is the most relaxed calm humble person you've ever met He's just so Easy to chat with so comfortable never toot his own horn but is a very strong product thinker of Scoping scaling and operating and I think the biggest Praise I can also give him is the startup that my partner when she was there it was about a team of eight or nine people Since they've been acquired a year later in this Business of 300 people That whole team is still there that speaks levels to him and the co-founder Craig of how they manage their people how they take care of their people and make sure that they're satisfied with the work they do
Laura: all four of those are really thoughtful recommendations So thank you so much And we'll link to them in the show notes we're on our lucky last question and I like to finish the podcast focusing around mental wellness Cause being an operator [00:45:00] is quite taxing Joyful but taxing what personal habits or beliefs help you stay grounded
George: touching grass As simple as it is It's so nice to go for a bike ride we walk our cat on a leash outside and that's genuinely can be my favorite part of the day because just watching her Explore sniff plants chase after birds It's like so simple and wonderful that it just slows everything down I think also having a balance your work can be very important but knowing that it's not the most important thing in the world as well So for instance I deeply care about Matilda and the product we're building But I will make sure that I get my eight hours of sleep and that I'm taking breaks during the day And I'm drinking enough water It should not get in the way of those core essentials because so much of that is Accumulation You need that consistently And so I think a routine that supports that helps you stay grounded and to do your best [00:46:00] work where you're cool calm collected you're not tense It's really letting you do your best work when you're actually at your slowest and calmest because you can think more rationally
Laura: I'm just getting that energy from you and loving it Thank you so much for joining us Where can people find you
George: of course on LinkedIn George Hatzis I'm on Letterboxd We did mention that at the beginning movie reviews I use the name hatzis I've got my portfolio up It's a really simple one pager www.georgehatzis.com I do mentoring on ADPList for designers I just hit a hundred sessions last week which is very exciting if you are a designer who wants to have a casual chat feel free to reach out and if you're a early stage startup that is curious to pick my brain very happy to not just be a contributor Love the idea of being an advisor early on So feel free to reach out my emails on my website Thank you so much Laura That was really [00:47:00] wonderful